Photo from ynet.co.il

A few days ago, I wrote a post about Yeshivat Maharat and the communal need for ordained orthodox Jewish female leaders. One of the points I mentioned was that women who practice the laws of taharat mishpacha would feel more comfortable asking shailahs of women rather than men. However, there is another area that should be within the realm of female spiritual leadership that has just as much importance, if not more so. That is the area of female mikvah conversion ceremonies.

There is in article in Ynet that discusses the embarrassment of women undergoing conversion ceremonies in Israel, which are run under orthodox Jewish auspices.  In Israel, as in every other part of the Jewish orthodox world, a convert must submerge in mikvah waters under the supervision of a rabbinic tribunal of three men.  A standard mikvah pool looks something like this:

The convert goes down the steps into the mikvah pool while the three rabbis stand above.  While being observed from above, the convert completely submerges himself or herself three times.  There are two blessings that are recited at the end of the three dunks – one for the blessing over immersing in the mikvah, and one thanking G-d for their new status as a Jew -

1. Barukh atah Ado-nai Elo-henu melekh ha’olam asher kideshanu b’mitzvotav v’tzivanu al ha’tevillah.

2. Baruch atah adonai eloheinu melech ha’olam shecheyanu v’kiy’manu v’higyanu lazman hazeh.

The rabbis supervise each dunk to make sure the person’s entire body goes under the water.  When the convert emerges from the mikvah, they are now officially a Jew.

In order to ensure the body’s complete contact with the mikvah waters, the ideal state is to be naked.  Male converts are completely unclothed during the conversion mikvah ritual.  The obvious question is, do women converts dunk naked in front of the men? In Israel, according to the article, the answer is no.  Women are given loose robes, as depicted in the drawing at the top of this post, to dunk in. Even so, for many women, the vulnerability of being in a soaked garment and immersing in front of men (the Jewish version of a wet t-shirt contest), is still enough to make the memory of the conversion experience an unpleasant one.

At the same time, the Israeli robe is much more tznius than the garment that appears to be standard in most orthodox American conversions, which literally is a sheet with a hole in it.  The sheet is a large and unwieldy piece of fabric whose purpose is to fan out above the water once the convert dunks under.  However, often the sheet sticks to some part of the body or fans out in a lopsided way, thus exposing a view of naked flesh to the rabbis above.

Because of the requirement that nothing get between the body and mikvah waters, often this unwieldy sheet poses an obstacle and is done away with altogether.  I read a thread on a Jewish women’s forum called imamother.com, where a convert answered questions from the other women.  One of her remarks was that when she converted, she did so 100% naked.  The other women were shocked that she went skinny dipping in front of three rabbis.  None of them were aware that female converts go naked during the conversion process.  The woman who shared her experience did not seem bothered by it, calling the rabbis in her conversion, “old farts.”

I’m not sure why this serious breach of tznius is considered ok.  Perhaps it’s because the person entering the mikvah is not yet a Jew?  There is also the assumption that if a woman did not grow up Jewish or grew up as a secular Jew, that her standards of modesty are lower (after all, they once wore bathing suits on the beach!).  It could also be the “rabbi as a doctor” argument.  The same argument that’s used when women express humiliation at having to show stained bedikah clothes or underwear to a rabbi for taharat mishpacha shailahs.  You wouldn’t be embarrassed to be examined by a male doctor would you?

Reading the article about Israeli female converts, as well as the experience of the American convert on imamother, makes me realize this is an issue that many Jewish women have gone through or will be going through.  This breach of modesty traumatizes a population that is often loathe to identify itself, and thus, it continues. The issue hits home, because it happened to me.  Part 2 on my experience continues tomorrow.

Photo from ynet.co.il – mikvah attendant and rabbis

What follows is a continuation of my post from yesterday.

I was adopted as a baby from the Jewish Children’s Bureau of Chicago to a non religious Jewish family.  As it was a closed adoption, the only information I had about my birth parents was that they were Jewish teenagers who were not prepared for a baby.  If I hadn’t become observant, I probably would have been none the wiser as to my heritage.  However, at the age of 23,  I found myself engaged to an orthodox Jew.  Being an adoptee, no orthodox rabbi would have married us without doing further research into my status.  For example, was my mother really Jewish or was I a mamzer?

With the sparse information I was able to retrieve from the Jewish Children’s Bureau, I found out that my birth mother was a young teen (too young to have been previously married), her parents were both Jews, but my birth father was not Jewish.  It was a shock to find out, after thinking otherwise, that my birth father was not a Jew.  However, my fiance and I were relieved that it seemed like we could get married without a problem.

We were unpleasantly surprised to find out that there was a problem.  The rabbi that we were working with ruled that I was 100% Jewish.  However, as there was a minority opinion in the talmud that says that if the father is not Jewish, the child is not Jewish, he recommended that I undergo a conversion so as to satisfy all opinions.  He reiterated that I was Jewish, but that this procedure could protect my children in the future.

I can’t begin to describe how devastating this was for me, as an adoptee.  When you are adopted, particularly in a closed adoption where you have zero contact or information about your birth parents, you cling to whatever kind of birthright you can.  For me, that was Judaism.  I knew nothing else about myself other than I was born Jewish.  Everything else about my history was conferred upon me by my adopted family.

They hailed from Poland, Russia, and England.  They shared genes that gave them the same eyes, or hair color, or smile.  Talents were passed on from generation to generation; my great-aunt, my mother, and my cousin were and are artistically gifted. None of these things had anything to do with me.  As the only adopted person in my family, I often felt like an alien dropped down from outer space.  However, the one thing I shared for real, not because I was adopted into it, was my religion.  In that, I could feel real ownership.  However, this psak took even that away from me.  I now had nothing that was originally mine.

We called the head dayan of the Bais Din (rabbinical court) of the Chicago Rabbinical Council (CRC) to ask his opinion, and were told that they do not rule that someone with a non Jewish father must convert.  With the information I provided to them from the Jewish Children’s Bureau, the CRC would not have required a conversion.

The problem was, we had already asked another highly respected rabbi, and he had given his psak.  I couldn’t shop around for another answer that I liked better, and this rabbi had hinged our being able to marry upon me undergoing the conversion ceremony.  I really didn’t see a way out of doing the conversion.

I have no doubt that he made this requirement with a pure heart, and I also have no doubt that in the future, when our kids or grandkids want to marry, the question of my Judaism (as an adoptee) will come up.  The fact that this prominent man married us and that I underwent a conversion as an extra stringency, will hopefully protect their interests.  I am grateful for his foresight and intentions.

Once I made the decision to go along with the rabbi’s psak, he set up a council with himself and two other local rabbis who would be witnesses.  A female mikvah attendant would also be present.   As a young woman who was currently taking kallah classes to learn about the laws of taharat mishpacha, I was already dreading the mikvah experience.

As someone who did not grow up with this process, it was highly embarrassing to me that I would have to go to a facility where I would essentially be announcing that I was going to be having sex that night.  It was also humiliating to be seen naked by a female mikvah attendant, or balanit, who would be inspecting me for chatzitzot and watching me dunk under water.  How much more so if those observing me would be men!  As one woman who is a balanit from Israel says, if the rabbis trust her to oversee women dunking for their monthly mikvah immersions, why can’t they trust her to oversee female converts for their immersions?

In any event, I was told that I would be given a large sheet with a hole in the middle for my head.  When I dunked under, the sheet would flow out to the top of the water, hindering any view of my naked body underneath.  It didn’t sound very foolproof, but at least I would have some form of clothing, so I went with it.  I was told that my time in the water would only take a few minutes and that the rabbis would ask me some basic questions about my religious intentions while in the mikvah before I dunked under three times.  They would ask me if I intended to keep Shabbos, yom tov, kosher, taharat mishpachah, and I don’t remember what else, but those were the biggies.  Then I would dunk, say two brachot, and the rabbis would leave the room and I would get out and get dressed.

I was incredibly nervous when I arrived at the mikvah.  I don’t remember the three rabbis being there when I arrived, I only remember the mikvah attendant letting me in and taking me on a small tour of the building before leaving me in a preparation room.  I had already done all the basics at home, and just quickly did some final preparations and a shower before pulling the white sheet the attendant gave me over my head.  I distinctly remember feeling like Charlie Brown in his ghost costume.

The mikvah attendant let me into the mikvah room and waited until I went down the stairs and into the mikvah pool before opening the door to the three men.  I was facing toward a wall with my back to the door, so I didn’t see them, but heard them shuffling in.  The mikvah attendant walked back around so that she was facing me.   I felt very vulnerable and naked despite the sheet, being the only unclothed person in a room of four clothed people surrounding me.

The rabbis began asking me questions about my commitment to observe various mitzvot, each of which I answered with a one word, “Yes.”  Then they asked me to dunk, which the mikvah attendant repeated.  She acted as their translators, as they were virtually mumbling, and it was hard to know what they were asking from my vantage point in the water.  The foremost thing on my mind was, “I hope this damn sheet keeps me covered!”

After the first dunk, they asked me to immerse again.  I was prepared for three dunks, so it didn’t surprise me.  After three dunks, I was prepared to say the brachot, but there was a problem.  They weren’t sure if the sheet had gotten in the way of my body and the water, and they needed me to immerse again.  It seemed like I went under the water an interminable number of times.  I began sputtering and breathing raggedly, as water had gotten up my nose, and my nerves grew increasingly frayed.  Finally, there was a pause and more mumbling.

The mikvah lady relayed, in an apologetic tone, that the rabbis didn’t think the immersions were kosher because the sheet kept getting in the way.  I would have to remove the sheet and dunk three more times.  I was stunned into inaction.  This was my worst nightmare coming true.  Momentarily, I considered getting out of the water, but that would mean that I could not marry my fiance.  Either that, or I would get out, tell my fiance I couldn’t go through with it, and he would convince me not to give up our lives together for one moment of embarrassment.  Then I would have to reschedule the conversion again, this time knowing and dreading what was to come.  Plus, if I refused to comply with their demand now, they might question my compliance with halacha in future areas and forbid me to convert at all.  Might as well get it over with.

I slipped the now heavy wet sheet over my head, and the attendant reached down to take it from me.  As my back was turned to them, I have no idea if the rabbis watched while I did this.  The mikvah attendant asked if I was ready, I nodded, immersed once, which was pronounced kosher, and dunked twice more.  I then recited the two brachot, all the while naked, and it was finally over.  The rabbis left the room and the attendant waited for me with a large towel as I went up the steps of the mikvah.  As she walked me back to the preparation room, the woman looked at me with compassionate eyes and said, “I really admire you.  I never would have been able to do what you just did.”

Back in the privacy of the dressing room, I was shaking as I dried off.  I had never been more embarrassed in my life.  I remember quickly dressing and hanging out in the room for a good 20 minutes, hoping to not have to face the three rabbis again when I left.  Hopeful that they were gone, I gathered my things and crept out.  To my dismay, all three men were in the lobby near the exit.  My face must have been beet red, as I mumbled at the floor, “Thanks, guys!”  It was all I could come up with.  They all said, “Mazal tov, mazal tov!”  like bleating sheep.  I don’t think they knew quite what to say either.

20 years later, I can say that the experience still haunts me and has put a dark cloud on all of my future mikvah experiences (although the monthly women’s mikvah is, thankfully, nothing like the conversion experience). Writing this has brought back the feelings of humiliation I endured during that time, and I question the wisdom of posting my story.  The shame of being labelled a convert and the shame of having been exposed to a threesome of holy men have prevented me from speaking up.  However, now that I know that other women are going through similar experiences, I feel like I have a responsibility to help end the exploitative practice of men overseeing female orthodox conversion immersions.

I would like to see rabbis involved in every part of the female conversion experience except the actual dunking.  The immersion oversight should be with a group of three women – whether experienced mikvah attendants or female maharats.  Men have no place in the mikvah when there is a woman in it.  Their presence compromises the dignity of all parties involved.

Voices call like distant ringing

Winding up my duplex steps

The clock is winding down and bringing

The time for flames to stretch and flex

Steam puffs smoky on my mirror

My son calls for his hat and tie

I strain to see my face grow clearer

The hazy woman seems to cry

Family, friends, and foes descend

Vultures will circle for Saturday’s feast

This face will surely crack and rend

A vision of a haggard beast

Magic potion’s blessed cure

Found in a bottle from Lancome

A concoction made from frankincense and myrrh

Born in the arbour of a garden gnome

Applied to the face, the result is charming

Brush strokes erase the creases of time

Although, the night might be alarming

The glow of youth can still be mine

Oh, the horror!  Oh, the shock!

Shul bathroom mirrors never lie

The vial’s promises were a crock!

Twenty four hours have gone by

My face is melting off it’s foundation

Like the chocolate fountain fondue

This is not the bar mitzvah celebration

I envisioned for me or you

It’s all the fault of Lancome

Promising perfection, longevity, and youth

Should have had the kiddush at home

Instead of standing here so uncouth

At least we will recoup the money

For cakes, cholent, kishke, and wine

No need to worry about anything, honey

Vengeance will be mine!

Poem inspired by the news story, Orthodox Jewish woman sues Lancome over 24-hour makeup

Photo from fabulousmag.co.uk

After my tongue-in-cheek poem about Rorie Weisberg on Friday, I wanted to write down some serious thoughts on the matter.  My first reaction to Mrs. Weisberg’s lawsuit, was that it was frivolous and unnecessary.  Lancome’s Teint Idole Ultra 24H foundation costs $45.  It is an upper end foundation, and I suppose I would also be disappointed if I shelled out 45 bucks, and the product didn’t deliver on its promise.

However, if it were me, I would have saved the receipt, gone back to the store where I purchased the makeup, and asked for a refund. If the store refused a refund, I would have contacted the Lancome company with my complaint, and asked for a refund from them directly.  I don’t know if Mrs. Weisberg took these steps, but to me, this would seem a more reasonable course of action than filing a lawsuit over a mere $45.

To be fair, it seems to me that her main legal purpose is to stop Lancome from advertising its Teint Idole Ultra 24H foundation as a 24 hour makeup.  However, the media makes it seem like she wants to sue Lancome for unspecified damages and get compensated for the distress her faded makeup caused.  Obviously, this portrayal makes her look vain and petty, which oddly contrasts with her identity as a religious Jew –   too pious to apply makeup on Shabbos, but unscrupulous enough to file a frivolous lawsuit.

In the afterglow of Shabbos, however, my thoughts on Mrs. Weisberg have changed from annoyance (do we really need Jewish women to be stereotyped as money hungry Jewish American Princesses any more than we already are?) to compassion (as a fellow Jewish mother who has made bar mitzvahs and who struggles with her own self-image).

Turning this issue around to a different angle, I no longer think that Rorie Weisberg’s foundation dilemma is laughable.  You see, I know a secret that many people don’t know.  It isn’t very earth shattering, and it seems obvious once you know it.  However, unless you live it, this secret can be elusive.

Every woman wants to be beautiful.  That’s the secret that I have discovered as a middle aged woman. You see, when I was a young lady, I thought that only young people cared about their appearance. I suppose I thought so because so many older women seemed to stop caring. I saw older women in my own family and community let their hair go gray, dress frumpy, become or stay overweight, and essentially develop an asexual appearance.

It seemed to my teenage/20-something self that once you passed a certain point in your life, you just no longer cared what you looked like. I used to guess that maybe it was because many of the older women I knew were married for many years and didn’t need to try to attract a new partner anymore. For those who were single, I guessed that maybe past a certain age you kind of gave up on finding a new relationship and therefore had no incentive to be attractive.

In any case, as I got older, I assumed that I too would care less about being attractive and be focused on the more important things in life like being a good person, a good friend, a good wife, a good mother, a good daughter, a good worker, etc. However, I secretly assumed that my young appearance would be forever frozen in time and I would remain attractive despite not having the time to focus as much on my beauty routine!

Once I actually reached middle age, I realized that just because I could acknowledge that there are more important things in life than being attractive, it doesn’t mean that feeling and being attractive isn’t also important to me. I also discovered that my young face would not remain forever petrified in place, and that I too was subject to the ravages of time.

Once I became that frumpy, overweight, asexual appearing woman I realized first hand that I had never made a conscious choice to become and remain that person (just as the older women who came before hadn’t made that choice). I had become that person because all of the other things that I wanted to become (a good person, a good friend, a good wife, a good mother, a good daughter, a good worker, etc.) took precedence over my health and appearance. I became so preoccupied with helping other people that I forgot to help myself.

I remember feeling shocked looking in the mirror or my reflection in windows on the street. I still felt like the attractive girl I used to be, even if my outside no longer resembled her. I still wanted to be pretty, even if I didn’t live a life that required me to be beautiful on the outside.

I have my man – we’ve been together over 20 years counting dating – and he’s stuck by my side skinny or fat, beautiful or ugly. I have my children – they don’t care if I am fat mom or skinny mom as long as I’m involved mom. I have my friends – some of whom met me as an older woman and some of whom met me in my younger years – but all of them have stuck with me regardless of my appearance.

I no longer am starting out in life where I have to “put my best foot forward” appearance-wise. Of course, we are all judged in society by our appearance, but many of us older ladies have our core support group in place who will love us no matter how we look. So, what’s the incentive to lose weight, get in shape, do our makeup, do our hair, and wear fashionable clothing? Who are we trying to impress?

I would argue that I am trying to impress myself. Contrary to the assumptions I made when I was younger, I now know that every woman wants to feel beautiful. Despite the fact that many of us lose hold of our appearance, we still want to get back what we lost (or maybe gain what we never had). Age doesn’t change the fact we all want to feel attractive and good about ourselves.

Looking at a middle-aged, overweight, frumpy housewife, you might never guess that she dreams of being able to fit into that size 2 evening gown she’s eying in the department store, or that she wishes she could don a pair of 6 inch Louboutin red bottoms and rock them at this year’s Chanukah party, or that she’d love to treat herself to a makeover at Mario Tricoci, but her daughter needs a yom tov dress, and she comes first.

Every woman wants to feel beautiful regardless of her age, weight, level of religious observance, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, etc. That’s what I have found as I have grown into the type of woman I once observed as a young person, who never could have imagined herself on the other side of the fence. The view from the other side has been eye-opening.

Photo from now.msn.com

There is a generally accepted concept in the orthodox Jewish community, that whatever ails a young person can be cured by getting married.  If a person is rebellious, unmotivated in school, unmotivated to find a job, suffers from physical or emotional handicaps, or is gay – all can be fixed with a walk to the chuppah.

From my experience in the secular world, this concept of marriage as a cure-all runs contrary to the popular way of thinking.  I can remember older relatives discussing wayward young people by saying things like, “How is he ever going to get married if he doesn’t get serious?  How will he support a family if he can’t hold down a job?  She will never find a husband if she keeps behaving this way!”  The assumption was that you needed to get your house in order before adding another tenant.

In orthodox marriages, it seems that people are, literally, unfinished, before getting married.  Not unfinished as in, the future spouse is the last ceremonial brick put into place, completing the structure.  Unfinished as in, the wooden frame is barely up.  Both because of the young ages at which men and women marry and because of familial and communal involvement in making matches, many young people find themselves under the chuppah with a virtual stranger.

They might also find themselves under the chuppah not because the other person loves them, but because they are using them to repair damages they have suffered – either to their reputations, their emotional health, or their sexual identities.  Marrying someone for any other purpose than love, seems to be a disaster waiting to happen.

I am reminded of a story I was told by a woman who had suffered such a circumstance in her first marriage.  Names and details have been changed to avoid recognition.  Any similarities to people bearing the same names and in the same circumstances are purely coincidental.  This woman, we will call her Penina, became religious through an orthodox Jewish youth group during her teen years.  Living in a small town with little Jewish life, she decided to move to a large east coast metropolitan city for college.  Penina quickly adapted to big city life, and joined a thriving Jewish congregation primarily made up of baalei teshuvas (secular Jews who have become religious).

As Penina made friends and participated in Jewish life in her new community, she naturally became interested in shidduchim and the prospect of finding her bashert (soul mate).  She had a few other female baal teshuva roommates, and they would swap dating stories and give each other encouragement through this process.  In the orthodox world, those young people from orthodox homes usually have their parents helping to navigate through the world of matchmakers.  For those without orthodox ties, they are dependent upon their rabbi and rebbetzin for dating suggestions and advice.

While Penina and her friends were going about their lives as newly observant young women, Sholom and his friends were also tackling similar issues from the men’s side.  Sholom grew up in the city where Penina now lived.  However, he too grew up in a secular environment.  After graduating college, Sholom found that he grew ever more confused about his life and where it was headed.

One day, an orthodox rabbi, we will call him Rabbi Ploni, came to give a lunch time shiur at the large consulting firm Sholom worked at.  After the shiur, Sholom spent a good twenty minutes shmoozing with Rabbi Ploni, who invited Sholom over for shabbos.  That was the beginning of a wonderful relationship, not only with the rabbi, but with his family and many other new friends from his congregation.

Sholom moved closer to the shul, in order to be able to walk there on shabbos.  He began keeping kosher, shabbos, yom tov, and davened with a minyan three times a day.  His mode of dress began to change.  He grew a beard, wore a kippah, a white shirt, dark pants, and black jacket.  His new uniform really made him feel the part of the person he wanted to become.  There was only one problem.  Sholom was gay.

Ever since Sholom was a boy, he felt different from the other guys in his circle of friends.  During his teenage years, when everyone around him seemed obsessed with girls, Sholom felt indifferent.  He supposed that as he got older and reached puberty, he would start noticing girls too.  However, puberty came and went, and Sholom still did not find himself attracted to women.  Disturbingly, he found himself increasingly attracted to men.  At first, the attraction was directed towards Hollywood celebrities or models in advertisements.  He could handle the feelings if they were only directed at strangers.

In college, he roomed with a young man who, at first glance, was complete computer nerd.  Sholom and his roommate, Mark, hit it off directly.  Sholom was a gamer back from the days of Atari, and the two set up television screens and gaming devices in their dorm room and played during their spare time.  They shared a love of skiing and mountain biking as well.  Eventually, during their Sophomore year, Sholom began to realize that for the first time, he was attracted to a man he knew in real life.  More than attracted, he was in love with him.

The next two years of college were agony for Sholom.  He kept looking for clues to discover if Mark was gay or straight.  Usually, it was obvious right away if a guy was straight.  Either he talked incessantly about girls, or he had a girlfriend, or was trying get one.   Mark didn’t have a girlfriend and didn’t talk about girls.  He didn’t talk about guys either.  Mark also never made what could be seen as “a move” on Sholom.  It was murky.  Sholom decided the best course of action was to keep his revelation to himself and suffer in silence.  When they finally graduated, Sholom felt sad at the prospect of saying goodbye to Mark, but relief that he would no longer be tested every day.

In his innocence, Sholom was wrong.  He would be tested many more times as he met men at work, out with friends, and yes, even at the very synagogue where he was trying to turn his life around.  After being part of his new orthodox community for about six months, Sholom finally worked up the nerve to confide in Rabbi Ploni about his homosexuality.  The rabbi spoke to him with such compassion and conviction, Sholom knew he had come to the right place.

Rabbi Ploni assured Sholom that in this messed up world, it was easy to get your feelings confused.  He told Sholom that there was no such thing as a homosexual Jewish man.  Hashem did not create men to want to be with other men.  What Sholom was experiencing was akin to a crossed wire.  His feelings of arousal were being misrouted to the wrong place.  Rabbi Ploni knew how to reroute Sholom’s wires so that they would activate with the correct stimulation – toward women.

For the next six months, Sholom had a chavrusa with Rabbi Ploni.  They learned sources in the gemara that talked about the nature of men, as well as some kabbalistic sources.  Rabbi Ploni told Sholom to call him whenever he felt an attraction toward another man.  By talking through his feelings, Sholom determined that he was really only acting out to avoid dealing with other childhood issues still bothering him.  His same sex attraction was merely an avoidance method to dealing with real problems in his life.

Sholom felt such a sense of relief that he wasn’t actually gay.  The more he worked with Rabbi Ploni, who assured him he was almost ready for marriage, the more optimistic Sholom felt about his future.  He would marry!  He would be a father!  He would be an upstanding member of the orthodox Jewish community!

One day in the late summer, Rabbi Piloni took Sholom aside and said that he was proud of how much Sholom had progressed in their learning together.  He told Sholom there was only one thing left to complete his transformation.  Marriage!  Rabbi Piloni had the perfect young lady for Sholom.  She was a baal teshuva, almost finished with college, and looking for another educated baal teshuva to create a bayis ne’eman b’yisroel.  Her name was Penina.  She was also one of Rabbi Ploni’s congregants, and they were a perfect match!

Sholom was overjoyed at the prospect of closing the old chapters of his life, and creating new ones.  However, he asked Rabbi Ploni if he should reveal his past confusion to Penina.  Rabbi Ploni assured him that nothing good could come of Sholom telling Penina about his past.  It was forbidden to speak loshon horah, even about oneself.  Sholom should enter their marriage with a clear conscience and a light heart.

Sholom and Penina went through a whirlwind courtship and were married within two months after the chagim.  Children followed soon thereafter.  From the start, Penina sensed that something was wrong.  With the exception of their wedding night, Sholom never instigated intimacy with her.  At first, she took this as a sign of respect and consideration.

In fact, Sholom told her that he only ever wanted to engage in intimacy if she were in the mood – he never wanted to force his will upon her.  However, after awhile, it seemed to Penina that Sholom was perfectly content to never engage in intimacy if she didn’t suggest it.  Despite taking care of her appearance and trying to be desirable for her husband, Sholom did not seem attracted to her.  Penina’s self-confidence plummeted.

Ten years into their marriage, Penina was taking Sholom’s suit to the dry cleaners where she found a bill from a hotel bar.  Sholom had been in St. Louis on a business trip the week before, but supposedly he was alone.  The bill’s tally showed that multiple cocktails were ordered, and Sholom never touched alcohol.   That was the first red flag.  The second red flag was a computerized statement of their credit card bill, which showed a charge from a local jeweler for a watch.  Penina had not received a watch from Sholom, nor was Sholom sporting a new watch.  Penina became certain that Sholom was having an affair.  It would explain his distance and lack of desire.

Finally one evening, after the kids were in bed, Penina confronted Sholom.  She accused him of sleeping with another woman.  Sholom’s face fell, and he began to cry.  He eventually admitted that he was having an affair.  Sholom was having a relationship with a coworker named, Dennis.  He apologized profusely, but said that he could no longer live a lie.  He and and Dennis were going to move to a different city, set up their own company, and live as partners in their new life together.  Sholom packed up shortly thereafter, moved in with Dennis (who was not Jewish), and began a secular existence as a gay man.

Penina now lives as a single mother in an orthodox community, who packs her kids up several times a year for visitation with their non-religious father, and tries to make sense of her life and where it went wrong.

I take Penina and Sholom’s experience as a cautionary tale.  Marriage is not a magical band-aid for the ills that plague us.  Marriage should not be used as a method to run away from our true identities.  Marriage is not something that should be foisted upon a couple by well meaning bystanders.  Marriage is a commitment that should be made by two loving, consenting, and mature adults who want to build a life upon a foundation that is already solid.

Photo from zalmi.blogspot.com

Today is Yom Yerushalayim, also known as Jerusalem Day.  Yom Yerushalyim commemorates Jerusalem’s reunification in 1967.   This day begins on the 28th day of the month of Iyyar in the Hebrew calendar.  This date is significant in many ways, but one of the most important is the reclaiming of the Kotel for the Jewish people.

The Kotel has been in the news a lot lately because of the Women of the Wall controversy.   The issue has spread from women fighting for the right to wear tallisim, tefillin, and sing aloud at the Kotel, to the right of Jews of every denomination to be able to pray there in the custom that they prefer – and not be limited by the local orthodox custom.

I personally believe that for a universal Jewish symbol, such as the Kotel, there is no such thing as a “local custom.”  Just because there are Jews that live in close proximity to the Kotel, and there are Jews that are employed by the Kotel landmark, does not mean that their customs take precedence over another Jew’s from Australia, Denmark, the United States, or anywhere else in the world.  The Kotel belongs to every Jew, and every Jew has the right to feel at home there.

When I was “coming up” in the orthodox world, I met quite a few baalei teshuvahs who had spent time in Israel.  This was in the 1990s.  Many of them mentioned that they began their journey through an orthodox person coming up to them at the Kotel and asking if they needed help with the davening, or helping them to put on tefillin, or asking them if they had a place for shabbos.  The Kotel was used as a kiruv opportunity for many of the “locals” who lived and taught nearby.  What the heck happened?

How have relations deteriorated between the orthodox and the secular to the point where both sides see the other as enemies?  Both sides can only lose by cutting off the other.  How is it that a religion that prides itself on valuing the neshama (soul) over the guf (body) is so judgmental about outer appearances?  Why is a man not wearing a kippah or a woman wearing pants automatically dismissed as a lost cause?  Doesn’t someone not wearing a frum uniform still have a Jewish soul?  Aren’t they still a life put here on earth by Hashem?

I can tell you that this kind of dismissal hurts first hand.  I remember when I first joined my orthodox community and was “shul hopping.”  I was trying to find a congregation where I would feel comfortable as a newbie to the orthodox world.  Being a rather shy person who doesn’t like large crowds, I first went looking at some of the smaller congregations in my area.  I found one synagogue that didn’t have a lot of young people, but was quaint and cozy, and the davening didn’t go so fast that I couldn’t keep up.  I went there for a month or two, until one day, there was an onsite shul barbecue.

The barbecue was on a Sunday, the day I normally spent time with my parents.  I invited them to come along, excited to introduce them to my new spiritual stomping grounds.  I felt a little bit anxious, because my parents were not quite as excited about my new found religious zeal as I was.   I was hoping that the small size of the group and the fact that many of the congregants were in their age bracket would help make them feel at home.

Looking back, I know that we stood out by our mode of dress.  My father did not wear a kippah (he may have taken one from the kippah bin in the lobby after arriving), my mother wore slacks and short sleeves, and neither she nor I were covering our hair.  Although I had been davening there for a some weeks, I really hadn’t gotten to know the majority of the congregants beyond saying, “Good shabbos.”  We did get some curious looks at the food booths, as if to say, “How did they find their way here?’

I found the inner sanctuary to be beautiful, and knew that my mother would appreciate seeing the inside.  I asked her to come indoors with me so that I could show her the shul.  We went inside and as I opened the door to the women’s section, I felt someone tap me on the shoulder.  I turned around to find an annoyed middle-aged woman staring us down.

This “keeper of the crypt” informed me that no one was allowed inside the building at this time.  I tried to explain that I simply wanted to show my mother the beautiful interior of the shul.  She reiterated that “they” didn’t want people “running around” inside the building and making a mess during the barbeque.  Indignant, I took my mother’s hand and we marched away out of the building, as the woman stood like a sentry blocking the door to the beis knesset.

I believe that if my mother and I had been dressed in below the knee skirts, long sleeves, and wigs it would not have been a problem if we wanted to take a peek inside the shul.   It was the fact that we were obvious outsiders, and didn’t belong, that was the real problem.  However, I did belong more than she knew, as one of my husband’s relatives was actually a board member of the shul.  My husband let his relative know what happened, and he gave her a call.  To be fair, she left an apologetic message on my answering machine.  But, being an immature person in my early twenties, I chose to ignore the call instead of explaining why her attitude had been so hurtful.

You see, I was so hoping to make a positive impression on my non-frum parents.  I wanted them to see how non-judgmental and welcoming the orthodox community could be.  I was not off to an auspicious start.

You never know what spark lies within someone.  Fortunately, I was already committed to a life of torah observance, and I wasn’t going to let one Debbie Downer get in the way of my goals.  However, my parents, not so much.  It isn’t that this one woman caused them not to be religious.  That decision was due to many factors that took place mostly before I was even born.  It’s that this woman could have made a possible difference in causing them to become religious.  At the very least, she could have made a kiddush Hashem and left them with a positive impression of religious Jews.  One positive interaction is all it takes.

This to me, is the tragedy of the Kotel controversy.  How many opportunities to turn Jews onto Judaism have been missed?  How many Jews have come to their homeland, only to be made to feel like they don’t belong?  Is the kiruv boom over, and a new wariness of secular Jews taken over?  It’s ironic that this is all coming to a head at the holiest Jewish site in the world.  Can we really expect the Beis Hamikdosh to be rebuilt under this growing sinas chinam (baseless hatred)?  Yom Yerushalayim is a day of unity and celebration for every Jew.  Those of us who are outwardly religious need to be aware of the power we hold in our hands – the power to turn a spark into a bright flame or the power to extinguish that spark forever.

Photo from winnipegfreepress.com

Twenty years ago, when my grandmother A”H, heard that I was moving to an orthodox community, she said, “Be prepared for everyone to get into your business.”  I had to smile at that, because my grandmother was one of the most gentle souls I have ever known, and not one to bad mouth any individual or community.

However, my grandma had been raised in a Jewish community in Russia, moved to another tight knit Jewish community on the west side of Chicago, and then moved again to the north side of Chicago next to a synagogue and quite a few orthodox neighbors.  She knew what she was talking about.  Despite living in a community that decries loshon horah or gossip of any kind, people around here sure seem to be well informed on the comings and goings of their brethren.  Well, sort of.

It’s not that people are peeping out their window curtains with spy glasses, it’s just that when you live in homes and apartments that are in such close proximity to each other, you naturally bump into your neighbors quite often.  Sometimes I think I have my exits and entries synchronized to my surrounding neighbors.  It seems like whenever I go out to my car, or pull back up in front of my house, at least one or two other folks are pulling up beside me.  If I ever think I can get away with quickly poking my uncovered head out the door to grab the morning paper, think again!  Those pesky Lubavitch Mesivta bachorim are filing past my front lawn on their way to their morning mikvah dip.

I have had times when people’s assumptions have left me stumped.  Like the time my neighbor asked me where my family went on our vacation.  What vacation?  “Oh, you know, the one you came back from last week?”  Huh?  “Yes, I saw your husband carrying suitcases out of your car!”  After a minute, I realized that she must have been referring to my husband bringing home our son from yeshiva for the weekend.

There was also the doozy when someone called me with concern to say that she had heard my husband had bacterial meningitis.  There was an unfortunate case of fatal meningitis in our community at that time.  My husband had recently lost a good deal of weight, and somehow, some people translated his weight loss to mean that he was the next victim of this deadly disease in our community.   Around that same time, someone else called to ask me if my husband had developed a brain tumor, as she knew someone with brain cancer who had also lost a lot of weight quickly.  Refute, nod, and smile.

Most of the time, I have to laugh as the misinterpretations that happen when people only rely on quick glimpses to form opinions.  However, sometimes these harmless mistakes in judgement can have more onerous results.  When we stop having accidental sightings of our fellow Jews that may or may not be incriminating, and start forming squads to purposely spy on our community members, there can be devastating consequences.

I am referring to the much written about London Modesty Violation Hotline.  As I don’t live in the Stamford Hill community in England, I can’t say if the Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations claim is true – that the hotline has been created due to public demand.  Maybe they are having some kind of major tznius crisis over there, with women walking down the lane in garments requiring double sided tape and jeggings with booty pad inserts.

My guess is that the women who live in the hotline’s targeted community are probably some of the most tzanua women in the orthodox world.  I’m beginning to think the modesty stringencies won’t stop until every last orthodox Jewish woman is wearing a burqa.

Why is it not mesirah to inform upon your fellow Jew?  Is it ok because the majority of tznius violations will inevitably be charged upon women?  The Shmuz website had an interesting dvar torah for Parshas Shelach that relates to spying on your fellow Jews,

“The Chofetz Chaim points out to us that the Torah reserves a curse for one who “hits his neighbor while hiding.” Chazal explain that this refers to someone who speaks loshon harah about his friend. Why am I so cavalier about what I say about him? Because he isn’t here. If he were standing right nearby, I would never say what I said. I say it only because he isn’t around. And in that sense I am hitting him while hiding.”

The hotline creators, Va’ad L’Toihar Hamachneh (Committee for the Purity of the Camp), makes it clear that the privacy of the spy will be protected, even as the privacy of the accused’s won’t.  This sort of behavior seems to be exactly what the Chofetz Chaim is describing.  Where is the derech eretz in making snap judgements about people’s outer appearances or behaviors, and escalating the situation by calling a hotline of modesty enforcers?

Life experience has taught me that my judgement of others, and their judgement of me, is sometimes way off.  Sometimes the faulty conclusions are funny, sometimes disturbing, but sometimes life altering.  Even if the men running the hotline are only there to inform the perpetrator of the allegations and not issue a punishment, there will be repercussions for the woman being reported.  She might be punished by her parents, her husband, or lose the respect of her children.  Perhaps her eligibility for a shidduch will be diminished, her children’s enrollment at day school might be at risk, or her employment within the community threatened.

I have heard it said that Hashem judges each of us with the same compassion with which we judge others.  I expect, upon entering Olam Haba in 120 years, these holy members of the Va’ad L’Toihar Hamachneh will be greeted by rows of angels manning phone banks and hearing, “Call on line two!  Pick up line four please!  There’s a call on line ten!”

Photo from blog.myjli.com

Haaretz reports that Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman has instructed the principals of girls’ seminaries in the Jerusalem area to send their students to conduct prayer services at the Western Wall this Friday morning.  Religious Zionist rabbis have also called for such a protest.  For the first time since their legal victory permitting them to pray at the Kotel outside of orthodox customs, the Women of the Wall (WOW), will hold their monthly Rosh Chodesh services.

I find it amusing that although the haredi community is decrying the victory of Women of the Wall, at the same time, they are inspired to encourage their girls to join WOW at the Kotel by holding counter services. This is the first time in recent memory that a Kol Koreh (call to action) has been issued concerning women, that doesn’t have anything to do with skirt lengths.

Shira Pruce, Director of Public Relations for then original Women of the Wall told The Jewish Press that she was honored and delighted for having inspired so many thousands of women to come and pray at the Kotel on Rosh Chodesh.

“If women of the Wall has inspired thousands of women to come to the Kotel, Amen V’amen,” she said.

For a community obsessed with wiping female images from the public eye, why send its girls right into the lens? Surely, the haredi rabbanim must know that the Kotel will be swarming with media taking videos and pictures on the women’s side.  Journalists are just waiting for a fight to break out tomorrow, although the rabbanim are calling for no violence.

It seems that when it serves the haredi community’s purposes, it’s fine to have women standing front and center posing for the cameras.  Haredi men finally got the memo that they look like misogynistic bullies, yelling and throwing things at non-haredi women coming to daven at the Kotel.  Now they are sending their women, really their girls, to fight this public relations battle for them.

If these seminary girls were truly outraged by the Women of the Wall, wouldn’t they have staged their own protest at the Kotel a long time ago?  To me, it seems like they are puppets on a string.  When the leader of a community instructs his followers to do something, are they really doing it of their own accord?

Despite the media circus, I hope that all girls and women davening at the Kotel on Friday are able to do so with kavvana and emunah.  They should have their tefillot answered for this new month of Sivan, whatever those prayers may be.

Photo from mspkosher.org

Reading a Jewish Press article the other week on the Women of the Wall controversy, one phrase stood out.  It was in this paragraph -

“A senior UTJ source told Kikar Hashabbat that they’re not looking to create a counter provocation, only to prove to all the people of Israel that kosher Jewish women are the true women of the Wall, who pray and supplicate by the Kotel year-round, not just on Rosh Chodesh, and not to start riots.”

In general, the first thing people think of when they hear the word kosher is food.  Kosher refers to the laws that govern all things food related for the Jewish people.  Nowadays, the term kosher has expanded to mean, “proper” or “reputable,” regarding any type transaction or situation.  There is also the flip side of “not kosher” meaning, “unacceptable” or “disreputable.”

Of course, I have heard the description of “kosher” used before to describe people.  The most commonly used example is that of kosher aidim, or, orthodox Jewish men who can serve as witnesses in Jewish legal proceedings.  For example, at an orthodox Jewish wedding, there needs to be two orthodox Jewish male witnesses to watch the groom put the ring on the bride’s finger.  The ketubah, or wedding contract, also needs to be signed by two orthodox Jewish male witnesses.   The witnesses cannot be related to the bride or groom.  A man who is not religiously observant is not considered to be a valid witness, hence, not kosher.

Somehow, hearing about a “kosher witness” from a legal perspective, makes it less distasteful.  I suppose I liken the term to knowledgeable or unknowledgeable in the ways of halacha (Jewish law).  It is better to have someone as a witness to a legal ceremony who understands the meaning behind the proceedings and all the steps entailed.  However, hearing the term “kosher” or “not kosher” applied to people as a means of insulting someone’s character, or, elevating another’s character based on their subjective level of religious observance, bothers me.

I feel like the distinction made between a “kosher Jew” and a “non-kosher Jew” only serves to divide the secular and religious communities even further.  You can tell how strongly frum people feel toward things that are treif (non-kosher) and things that are kosher by their reactions to mistakenly eating non-kosher food.  This article in Matzav shows the horror people feel when seeing orthodox children being given treif food by their babysitters.  Another article in The Jewish Week describes a recent kosher scandal where a store owner in California is accused of smuggling in non-certified meat and passing it off as kosher.

As a Jew who keeps kosher, I would also be very upset at being duped into believing I was buying kosher products, only to find out they were treif (especially at the exorbitant prices charged for kosher food!).  I also have had issues where babysitters have inadvertently brought non-kosher food into my home, and had to establish a zero tolerance policy for outside food.  However, I would never apply a zero tolerance policy toward another human being, especially a Jew, because they were less religiously observant than me.

I feel like the term kosher reduces people to objects, like pieces of meat, and self appointed judges can pronounce others kosher or treif on a whim.  Is the illusive achdus Jews hope to achieve only to be sought out with other Jews who look and behave like themselves?  Doesn’t achdus means that we care for and respect all Jews regardless of our differences?

Coming from a family of non-observant Jews, I can honestly say that in their hearts and minds, if not in their level of observance, they were kosher.  I have met so many orthodox people who talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk (I am including myself in this category at certain times in my life).  Standing side by side to be chosen as a kosher aid for a chuppah, the Jew wearing a black hat and suit would surely be chosen over my Grandpa Max in his denim work overalls and wool cap .  However, the likelihood would be that Grandpa, a good man down to his very soul, would be the true kosher witness to such an event.

Who is to say which is more important, bein adam l’chavero (commandments dealing with man and his fellow man) or bein adam l’Makom (commandments dealing with one’s relationship with God)?  Only Hashem can decide who is a “kosher Jew” and who is treif.

Photo from blog.showmakeup.com

I just read two crazy articles in the Daily Mail and New York Post that discuss ways to make cosmetics last throughout Shabbos and Yom Tov.  The articles interview orthodox women who have developed creative methods for extending the wear of their makeup for 24-48 hours.  Some of the tips mentioned were:

- sipping soup through a straw on Friday night so as not to disturb their lipstick

- telling their husbands not to touch them on Shabbos or Yom Tov for fear of ruining their makeup

- putting on rouge in multiple layers to make it last

- not eating anything oily over Shabbos or Yom Tov so that skin won’t get greasy and makeup slick off

- using a black Sharpie permanent marker as eyeliner before Shabbos or Yom Tov

- spraying hairspray over eyes and cheeks to set makeup into place (only an expensive brand like $25 Kenra spray does the trick)

- use  ‘a whole pound of gel and mousse’ in your hair before Shabbos or Yom Tov so that it stays put the entire time

- sleep with a sock over your head to keep hair from becoming frizzy

- apply ‘drag queen foundation’ before Shabbos and sleep all night on your back

I enjoy wearing makeup with the best of them, but some of this advice is ridiculous and dangerous.  I certainly hope that people take these articles with a grain of salt.  I don’t think it’s common for orthodox Jewish women to put permanent marker on their eyes or spray hairspray into their faces to make their makeup last all Shabbos.   I have never witnessed a woman sipping soup through a straw in order to preserve her lipstick, and I would imagine that most would be embarrassed in front of hosts or guests to do so.

Of course, many of us would like to be able to wear our weekday makeup on Shabbos or Yom Tov.  That being said, for me, following the advice above would take away from the simcha of Shabbos and Yom Tov.  I just can’t bring myself to care that much about my makeup that I would alter my behavior to such an extent.  One consolation is that since we aren’t allowed to take photos on Shabbos or Yom Tov, there is no evidence of how pale or blotchy we look without it!

Many people have seen the 1989 movie, When Harry Met Sally. One of the main conversations that takes place in the movie is the subject of whether or not men and women can be friends. See this pivotal conversation below -

The basic premise is that Harry doesn’t believe that men and women can just be friends, because men always have an ulterior motive, while Sally believes this is ridiculous and platonic friendship is certainly possible between the two sexes.

Two young independent film makers seemed to prove Harry’s theory in their Youtube film interview survey, which is entitled, “Why Men and Women Can’t be Friends.”

Basically, every girl who is asked if men and women can be friends answers, yes. Every guy sort of guffaws, and sputters, “No!” Interestingly, the women do admit they feel that their guy friends would be interested in dating them if they were willing.  It seems the conclusion is that women can be friends with men that they have no intention of dating, but the same doesn’t really hold true in the reverse.

In “When Harry Met Sally,”  Harry adds an addendum that if a man is already in a relationship, then he can be platonic friends with another woman.  In other words, if he is already taken and not out looking for a partner, he can have a friendship with no other expectations. However, he talks his way around this theory in the next breath, by saying how the man’s current partner will be jealous of the platonic friendship and accuse him of being attracted to the friend, which in the end, Harry admits, is probably true. Hence, men and women can never be friends.

Coming from a non-religious background, I went to co-ed schools throughout my elementary, high school, and college education. I did have many friends who were boys, and in all those years of schooling, I can only recall three times when a friend expressed interest in dating me. For myself, the guys I was platonic friends with were firmly in the “friend zone.” I have no idea if any of my other guy friends secretly harbored feelings beyond friendship, but they didn’t seem to.

In the years since becoming religious and getting married, many of my old friendships, both with men and women, have fallen by the wayside. This is due to a variety of factors, but mainly just life – kids, busy schedules, location, etc. The male friends I have now are always also connected to my husband in some way – either relatives or “couples friends.” I have no idea if secular married couples continue to have individual friendships with members of the opposite sex – as in going for coffee, talking on the phone, that sort of thing – but in the frum world, this isn’t done. In fact, some segments of frum society even frown on couples hanging out with other couples.

I do miss the easy going interaction I used to have with guy friends when I was younger. In the frum community, everything is so sexualized, that any interaction between boys and girls is suspected to have an ulterior motive. In many ways, I’m glad that I grew up being able to see members of the opposite sex as people and not potential sex partners. That really isn’t the message my kids get from their teachers or rabbis.

In my opinion, the result of keeping kids segregated from the opposite sex during their formative years is that every peer interaction is about mating or finding a potential mate. Men and women view each other only in the context of familial relationships or marriage partners. Friendship doesn’t play a role. Men and women aren’t taught to carry on conversations with each other as people. Each side is taught stereotypes about the other, and then are expected to relate and fumble for things to say on dates based on those limited stereotypes. There can also be misreadings of social cues or body language. A smile can mean an invitation for something more to a man who isn’t used to being around women.

It seems that if men and women learned to communicate with each other in a safe neutral friend zone before marriage, perhaps communication after marriage would be better. Then again, there is no hard proof of this theory, the same way there is no proof that couples who live together before marriage have a lower rate of divorce.

Although I think that platonic friendships can be a great thing, I wound up marrying the last platonic friend who admitted to having a crush on me.  I felt that there could be worse foundations to start a marriage on than friendship.  So in the end, my experience has proved Harry’s theory that men and women can never just be friends – there is always the potential for something more beneath the surface.

I conducted a totally unscientific and informal survey at the main online hotspot to find frum men from all different walks of orthodox life – Craigslist! The problem is that I didn’t get any responses from women, so the survey didn’t reflect a complete picture.  To help balance the scales, I posted the same questions on a site for orthodox women. The women had a lot to say on the subject! Their answers follow the men’s responses.

Men’s Responses:

Do you think orthodox men and women can be friends?
No

Possibly

Why not? sure! but frum orthodox wont speak to women just to be friends, since it can bring to unholy thoughts

I do think men and woman can be friends but I believe much of the time and I’m not talking 51% there is an underlying unsaid aspect that can easily compromise what had started off as a strictly platonic friendship. And compromising is the better scenario.

Men and woman can be friends.

Yes

Yes

Yes

i “personally” think so. not the rabbeim in the community

Yes, it’s possible. It’s harder than for non-frum people because judaism sexualizes all male-female encounters.

I think platonic relationships are definitely possible. It’s for sure harder for a frum person who has almost no contact with the opposite gender because even the slightest flirtation will get a reaction. Our excitement is very much bound to levels of exposure. In a nudist colony people don’t get excited seeing a naked woman.

Do you think men and women have different opinions on this subject?
Don’t know! ask the women and compare the answers

No

Depends on the person

I do not think men and women have dif opinions on the matter I think where you come from and what experiences you have had will define how you feel on the subject.

Men and woman have different opinions on this? Depending where they are from, grow up but no men woman should not have different opinions if they both come from and grew up the same place.

You’re kidding, right?

No it all depends how frum you are

What subject Platonic? Yes

Yes

Do you think those raised in a segregated society would have a harder being platonic friends?
ABSOLUTELY !

Yes – because those in segregated society would misread signals.

Yes

I do believe that men and women raised in a segregated society have a harder time just being friends

Those coming from a segregated society definitely have a harder time being platonic friends.

No

No

Yes

No. they may be a bit more shy

Would someone who grew up in a co-ed environment have an easier time being platonic friends?
PROBABLY

Maybe

Yes

someone who was raised coed will prob have an easier time.

yes someone growing up in a co-ed environment will have an easier time being platonic friends.

No

No

Yes

im not sure

Can men and women have platonic friendships in the workplace, school, or professional settings?
You mean work relationship , yes

Yes

Yes

I don’t really call workplace school professional relationships friendships. They’re basic makeup is different.

Men woman may have co-workers and be friends with them from school work or professional setting because its a work type of friendship not plantonic friendship.

Yes

Depends how personal the friendship gets I have work friends

Yes I work chasidic people and they are Platonic friends but they won’t compliment or say something nice. If I compliment her guys tell me that I’m crazy but they like it and tell me thanks.

Yes

Can men and women be platonic friends as two couples?
It is so by some even frum once the guys are close the women get to know each other and so the couples for a friendship

Yes

Yes

Married people will have an easier time being just friends but then again the stakes are much higher and compromising that situation is that much worse so once agains you have pros and cons.

Being platonic friends as couples? Not sure what that means.

There will always be an underlying sexual tension. I agree it is the most common (and the safest), but it is not completely foolproof.

Depends

Yes but depends whom. From Williamsburg I would say 90% not

Yes

Would a married person have an easier time being platonic friends?
In a way

No

Not necessarily

Yes …but jealousy from spouses and rumors would probably prevent the friendship.

Married men may have plantonic friends easier if their wives are friends as well. Meaning a married man can make a platonic friendship easier and his wife will be a part of the friendship.

No

No

Definitely yes

Yes

Would people pick better marriage partners if they knew how to be friends beforehand?
I dont know, but hassidic frum marriages hold longer and stronger then the secular type i think

No I do not believe they would pick a better partner.

If men and woman know and spend time together before so they can learn of they are the right partner. That is a though question. Personally I don’t think so because unless you live with your partner together you won’t see their bad side so to speak.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with being platonic

No

Not necessary because their parents investigate alot before they even meet

No

What orthodox group do you identify with?
I wont tell you that yet!

I am jewish orthodox.

Where I fall into? I grew up chassidish and now live in a modern orthodox community. So yes I see it both ways.

Modern orthodox

Chassidish

Orthodox

Satmer

Open minded frum jew

Hasidim

Women’s Responses:

Can Orthodox Men and Women Be Just Friends?

Yes 18% [ 35 ]
No 50% [ 94 ]
Maybe-depends on the situation and people 30% [ 56 ]
Total Votes : 185

Responses to the individual questions -

Do you think orthodox men and women can be friends?

I believe that opposite genders can be friends, but should refrain from close (even 100%) platonic friendships, because that can affect a marriage.

Some women and some men can be friends. Some people, for whatever reason cannot manage a platonic friendship with the opposite gender.

I grew up in a mixed environment. I am FFB (frum from birth). I think a lot of this is determined by how attractive the people involved are. I can make friends with even chassidush men although there is always the underlying sexuality.

Absolutely not. Whenever I had a friendship with a co-worker or otherwise, it always turned out that the guys privately had feelings for me. I was just their friend but that is not how they saw it. Even the married men who spend a bit too much time talking to you, it’s because at some level there’s an attraction, it’s not just because you both like exchanging recipes.

I grew up just JPF (just plain frum) and I always believed in platonic relationships. I think I was naive though. My one, favorite platonic relationship was with a guy I went to college with. Inevitably (as in many cases), one of us became more interested in the other and that became very painful. We only became real friends again after we were both married and even now, we don’t ever socialize without his wife present.

when I was in seminary (I’m ffb, right wing MO) the teachers were trying hard to convince us to give up our boyfriends and guy-friends, and the most effective tactic was to teach primary sources and more contemporary she’elot v’teshuvot etc on the topic. It seems pretty clear on the part of the Shulchan Aruch: me’od me’od hitrachek min ha’isha, and pirkei avot: al tarbeh sicha, etc. In earlier cultures, casual relationships bw opposite genders were not really done. I think the reason is b/c while it can work, more often it’s one sided. It’s almost impossible to ignore s/o’s gender when relating to them. (think: when harry met sally:) the best romance books and movies take a supposedly “platonic” rel, and have it end in love. In terms of how far ppl go to avoid these interactions and relationships- that varies by community and culture. I think there’s a spectrum, and ppl w integrity and maturity will feel their natural boundaries kick in when it becomes even subtly inappropriate. (Ppl w/o integrity will find a way around all the externally imposed gedarim anyway.) But I like the structure and sensitivities that help me avoid potentially uncomfortable situations. So I’m friendly towards my husband’s friends and friends’ husband, but not friends. Just my 2 cents- good luck w ur research:)

Some can but that doesn’t change the fact that they shouldn’t.

I’m imagining myself in a situation of having a friendship with a guy. Maybe this is me, but if I personally liked someone, and really liked the way he thought, that alone would be attractive enough to me to start finding him attractive. I don’t mean to say that I start to have crushes on any person I have to interact with, but I really wouldn’t do so on a social level.
Now as far as the reverse goes – do I think any guy would start to find me attractive under similar circumstances? People are wired differently. I won’t speak for men. But I will speak for me.

One of my oldest friends is a male. He’s the one who, when he met my DH when we were first dating (friend was single at the time) said, “This is the guy for you.” So I feel certain he doesn’t have any underlying feelings for me. I set him up on dates, talked to him after dates, and helped him design his wedding proposal to his wife. I feel certain I don’t have any non-friend feelings for him. We danced at each others’ weddings.

I am sure there are exceptions to the rule (such as one friend is gay/lesbian or perhaps people who grew up together from when they were young… etc) but as a general rule I think the answer is no. I don’t think men and women can have completely platonic friendships. It may seem platonic but there is always an undercurrent, however minor, but it is still there.

It didn’t work out for me. I was trying very hard to prove that men and women can have a platonic relationship. Still didn’t work. In my case, even though I was not attracted to this guy at all, I grew to love his personality, and consequently became attracted. We cut off right at the point before it got seriously physical.

I have always had male friends. My first best friend in the world was a boy, and all these years later, I still adore him, and there has never, ever been anything sexual about it. Even my teenage son is able to have platonic friendships with girls.
I’d just hate to write off half the world, who have interesting ideas and perspectives.

you don’t have to “write off” half the world. its not all or nothing. You can still discuss interesting ideas and perspectives but keep barriers in place to avoid the natural course of events- that most of the time non platonic feelings will develop by one or both parties involved.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! I’ve been friendly with a boy… well, now he’s a man of 50, since we were 16. I NEVER had anything but platonic feelings for him and still don’t. He had girlfriends come and go but we were just friends. He’s been married for 30 years, I’ve been married for almost that long… not an issue. At all. I mean, you can’t POSSIBLY be sexually attracted to every guy with equipment, can you?

In my vast life experience , I have to say that marital status and age is everything. If you are in high school or single in your 20s, IMVHO, don’t fool yourself . Yes, it’s possible if you set very strong barriers in place , but why . Life is hard enough as it is, without driving your hormones insane. If you are over 50 and happily married, almost 95% of the time it’s as easy as breathing if you were raised in s healthy co-Ed environment . If at that stage of life, you still can manage it, I truely feel bad that your school and upbringing gave you such neurotic and psychological issues.

depends on the situation

Sure they can be, if it’s considered normal a priori.

Well, with my “friend boy” I LOVED his thinking and his logic and his vast knowledge but his body repelled me. Then I met my DH (at about the same age BTW) and loved the whole package. Totally different feelings! Growing up in a Bnai Akiva environment in the 70s-early 80s, being together with the boys was totally natural and fun. We had our limits. In fact, I recently attended a reunion, the second in as many years. I wasn’t at the first one so can’t comment on how emotional it was for nearly 100 childhood FRIENDS to meet, some after ~30 years of more. But that second reunion… we had a Rabbi who is the head of a prominent religious school in Jlm, a CHAREIDI guy with 8 kids and 15 grandchildren (no one of us 50-51 year olds could beat that) who could not resist the charming memories and so on. It was ALL platonic besides, of course, for the two married couples from our group, each married for around 30 years now. I guess this is like describing earth life to Martians: you have to live it to know it!!!

my answer is yes ~ don’t know why people have become sexual objects … we are not animals

For me, it’s an absolutely silly question. I grew up secular, and all of my current friends grew up Orthodox, but none in a totally gender-segregating community. I have quite a few married and single Orthodox male friends. I hang out with them. Recently, I had one over in my apartment while my husband was out. Nothing remotely happened. It is laughable to think it even would! That said, I don’t think I’m really the demographic you are looking at for your “study”. I live in a mixed community where it’s very very common for men and women to be friends. I am sure that it is much harder for those who live in more segregated communities to have male friends — isn’t that the point of the community? I do not live in one of those types of communities, though, and have never felt weird about having male friends. I don’t think it conflicts with my religious values, either…

I also grew up totally co-ed except for high school, and I have a bunch of really close guy friends for ages and ages and ages. They are all secular because frum guys seem to have a bit of a problem with the concept here in EY if they are really frum and if they are not, well then, they aren’t “orthodox” even if they wear a kippa. So go define orthodox….. Did I ever have “feelings” for them? Not since getting married, that’s for sure. There is no man in this universe who tops my DH , no one more handsome, smarter, kinder etc. Why in the world should I take second rate while I have first rate at home? Did they ever have “feelings” for me? Sure they did but not the kind to jump into bed with me lol! Feelings that they adored and still adore me as a friend, for my brain, for my personality, for my kindness. They were there in the crises in my life and I was there in their crises. With only one did we become friends as a couple but that is because this was the only guy, and he is 70 today, whose wife never feared their relationship with me. She is really straight and yekke and could never imagine that her husband would even for a moment stray, even in his mind (and he doesn’t, he’s definitely a father figure for me in a sense). Took a very very very long time until the other wives (they were all married when we met and much older than me, I was still single) got the picture and stopped being scared. They didn’t realize that FRUM meant that it was not an option for me to even think in that direction. Only when one of my friends had a life threatening medical crisis and I used my powers to intervene and get help fast, did she realize that I was on “their side” and not just “his side” and when three years later there was a problem and she was abroad, she called me to drive to their house and force her husband into the hospital and I stayed there with him for 24 hours so he wouldn’t be alone until her plane landed. That iced the cake and since then we are all buddies.

So I think the problem could more be the wives of these guys who might get scared rather than the guys and you…at least that was my experience.

If neither is attracted -and it’s not like everyone is attracted to everyone- why not? Extreme example: if you befriend an old person at the retirement house.

There is always an underlying attraction, or the thought of there being one. The mature and important thing to do is to be aware of this constantly. That way you can set and maintain boundaries (spoken or unspoken). I’m not suggesting getting into this situation, but sometimes life creates situations for us.

Yes

it really all depends on what you believe. if you believe you cannot be platonic friends with a guy, then you can’t. if you believe men and women CAN be platonic friends, then you can. if you start out believing you can, but then change your mind in a specific situation or with a specific friend, then you can’t be platonic friends with that particular person. I personally believe that men and women can be friends without feeling the need to become romantic or otherwise involved. however, sometimes feelings develop beyond our control, and I still believe that us humans have the ability to control our actions, words, and even thoughts. so when you are in a platonic friendship with a guy, and you start noticing that you are both feeling all warm and fuzzy towards each other, I believe you still have the ability to not do anything inappropriate. this might mean spending less time together, or taking a break from each other, whatever. nothing even needs to be said. but the point is, you CAN be platonic friends, until you aren’t anymore, and then you can use the superpower called Self Control to remain a moral human being even while you socialize with the opposite gender. On the flip side of that, I think teaching men and women that we cannot be platonic friends is giving the message that we have no self control, that we automatically want to sleep with anyone we find remotely attractive, and that we act on every base desire that pops into our animalistic heads. sorry, but I think a bit too highly of myself to accept that.

some people can, some people can’t. growing up, most of my friends were guys. (the nerdy math guys.) one by one, after college, each met the woman they’d marry and each began to exclude me. once, I wasn’t invited to a dinner party because “there weren’t enough chairs.” likely, all of this, because I was not attached at the time. as an adult, when I was still single, the only male friends I’ve had were gay. the ones with wives made sure I was exceptionally unwelcome. it’s a little better now that I’m with DH, who is very cool with my having male friends. but, honestly, I just stopped trying after one too brunch invites got turned down. it hurts. it’s been clear to me that the wives are jealous. that’s obvious. I’m pretty/thin/wry/smart, but I’ve never received throngs of attention from men–it’s not as though I look like angelina jolie. a group of us from HS are friendly on FB, and one of the guys works near where we live. we keep making coffee dates, they never happen. his wife’s fault. now, I need to be frank about this: this guy was SO cute when we were kids, and we were in the temple youth group together (conservative, obv). if I’d wanted him, I’d have had plenty of chances. now? middle aged and 50 pounds overweight? she can have him. I just wanted to have coffee with an old friend. I don’t know why I’m so threatening.

I voted yes but it really depends. I wouldn’t call myself friends with any men really but when I see or speak to certain men we do have a nice conversation. Be it family members, in laws etc. I think you have to know your limit and their limit. Like there are certain things I would say to my brother in law and that is fine but if I would say it to my husbands brother he would dis-own me, if you could use that term. I am a very chatty, friendly person by nature so I am sure that does have a weight to my side on this. Sometimes I see myself chatty to a point it is almost flirty or the other side could take it as such and I back off. It’s about using control. There are certain men from my childhood who I would hug if I met again but totally not be interested in them in any s-xual sense at all! All people can be friends…although funnily enough whenever I see a group of girls with some guys on the subway or bus etc, the guys are always gay!

I grew up in Yeshivish out of town home. as a kid I would have told you its impossible. I still remember when I was in 6th or 7th grade and my older brothers friend came over to play some game and we all were playing then my bro had to leave so I was finishing the game. Then some friends came to visit me and so I ended the game to go to my friends and my bro’s friend left my house angry at me cuz he waited all week to see me….! That was my first bang into reality. But as an older teen I had to get involved in situations where I needed to deal with men at times and was able to see that it can be possible. Even on a closer relationship (not inappropriate but ery involved in dealing with things together) As a young single I had some shocks – like one man I worked with on a day to day basis for a month or so had seemed so “work minded” and our relationship was always accomplishing the set tasks. One day when nobody was around he told me I have beautiful eyes. I stood shocked and then just walked out of the room and told my boss I will not come back and work if that guy is anywhere around cuz I was scared stiff.
As a bit of an older single I had to deal with many men of different ages and really almost had a “friendship” with some of them as we shared common situations and had to touch base often. I rarely had any situation where I was aware at least of any underlying thoughts going on. I often was even involved with setting some of these guys up on dates and I spoke to them quite a few times regarding their dating parsha. Never did they get inappropriate. I had some guys that I knew from before they were married that were involved and setting me up on dates (the real yeshivish ones had their wivees talk to me as a via point of communication but many spoke straight to me. Actually my shidduch happened via a friends husband that I used to hang out with both of them and he got to know me. I don think he had any underlying thoughts but you never know.) And then when I got married – I work mainly with men and my dh laughs abt that I have lots of guyfriends but he is ok with the situation and knows that if I feel anything inappropriate going on I tell him right away and ask him for advice. Like the other day I was assigned a new guy to work with that was so overly friendly and I just couldnt take it cuz he talked to me like I was his best friend or wife and I finally told the guy straight that I feel he is being inappropriate and I cant work with him unless he changes the way he talks to me from then on. And he did. In my work situation – I am very involved with the ppl I work with and some of them really are like friends. They all tell me I need to be at their fam simchas (which can get awkward cuz Im there for the man and barely know the women in the fam if even!) I often tell them I want to meet their wives so that their wives can be comfortable with the situation. But the truth is – some of them really are friends and really help me out when I need and when I need to take care of things they are there to help. Many of them are older than me by much and many are in the same age range but its kind of weird because I feel like in most cases it could be a bad situation but it just isnt. Then again – they dont tell me if it is…. so I cant tell you what they really think. I wouldnt be surprised if one or two of them are silently attracted but I really try hard not to be too close to anyone that I feel may be a problem. I’ve seen very often though – the platonic relationship thing not being platonic and can get messy too. My advice – dont make friends with guys if you dont have too. If you have too – then dont do things that will attaract the maleness in them (I.e. flicking hair, body language etc) And be ready to pick up on anything that may be a sign of attractiveness and then be smart about. Many marriages are ruined from carelessness… gotta be careful cuz a guy is a guy. Not an animal but a guy with the physical natural attractedness to a woman in general.

yes in theory. in practise not so easy. I have a friend who I’ve known forever and a day and we are still friends.
was it always platonic ? No. But the not-platonic part was a short aberration in a lifetime of friendship. he is like the brother I never had but with incestuous over/undertones. as we now live in different countries we just skype from time to time. as we know each other so well we can use each other as a sounding board. I’ve always had male friends, but you have to be careful with your boundaries and set them really well or one or other of you can step over the line. I think it’s easier to be platonic friends in the workplace as most companies have very strict guidelines for this as they don’t want to get slammed with sexual harassment suites.

I grew up yeshivish and still consider myself that way. Even though I went to Bais Yaakov, I unfortunately was not such a good girl and did stuff with guys. I will say that as a TEEN, it is hard to have a platonic relationship due to hormones, lack of seeing consequences, the need for freedom and fun, and many other things. many of my friends that started out just “talking” to guys went further without ever wanting to. they just got too close and deep down I think kind of did want it – these were girls who knew their limits, very frum families, etc. Now I am married to a BT. He does not think men and women should have any contact. He was in public school and always co-ed. He said guys were always talking about and thinking about other girls. Maybe they wouldn’t do anything but they sure were thinking it. He felt all the underlying attraction in normal conversations and saw that many guys were very into girls. Even after he wasn’t a teen, as a married man he said that men still check out and talk about women. They all notice that X’s wife is so hot, etc. I know for myself that as a married woman, I am extremely unlikely to get into any physical relationship with another man because I love my husband and feel obligated to him. As a single girl, there was nothing holding me back or tying me down. I would never, ever want to hurt my husband. Even if I ch”v did not love my husband, I believe that I wouldn’t get physical out of fear of being discovered. The embarrassment of an affair where everyone at work knows, your kids know, your family and friends are all talking about you is much worse than a teenager who will eventually straighten out and people look the other way.
My husband is very particular about this area. I dress very, very tzniusly and am extremely separated from men. I work in a girl’s school so only women – no men. He does not want me to ever work in an office with men or a boy’s school with rabbanim. Everything we do is separate – we never have couple over, no socializing parties or anything. It gets lonely since we don’t take part in these things but that is how we do it.

I think it depends how you define “friends.” Casual friends, where you talk about how work is going and how studies are going and how the kids are doing and the books you’ve read recently, etc – sure. Even that much could be an issue if either of you finds the other wildly attractive, or if either of you is from a society where that kind of interaction isn’t the norm. But in general it works out OK, IMHO. Friends-friends, where you talk about the above but also about emotional stuff, eg. how you feel about a sibling’s divorce, or a parent’s death, or anything related to marriage, or where you regularly spend one-on-one time together – not so much. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible. I’m sure there are straight men and women out there who’ve had long-term friendships where they discussed the deepest emotional issues and neither was ever attracted to the other or overly invested in the relationship to the point where it interfered with their marriage. There are also people who’ve driven drunk regularly for the past 20 years and haven’t crashed their car yet. It’s possible. I just don’t think it’s advisable. Some people are able to make it work – but you have no way of knowing ahead of time if you’ll be one of that group, or in the I-can’t-stop-thinking-about-my-friend (/”I didn’t mean to have an affair, it just kind of happened”) group. Whereas if you draw lines, you can be more sure. It’s hard to fall in love with someone without deep conversations or one-on-one time. (Which brings up another question – does “platonic” mean “never had any kind of romantic/sexual contact,” or “neither has romantic feelings for the other”?) Regarding singles – I think male-female friendships between singles are more likely to lead to one person or both wanting more than are friendships between married people. But since they’re single, that’s often not a bad thing.

One of my best friends in the world is a guy. I would say he knows everything about me and I probably know everything about him. I do not discuss my husband with him because they are friends too and I would not embarrass my DH by discussing him with a friend of his. I have know him since I was 15 and we have been through it all together- IF on both sides, marriage, (now he is getting divorced), sibling issues, grandparents deaths, business partnerships, we daven for each other.. EVERYTHING. Never remote attraction on either side, just really enjoy each others company, thoughts and debates on things. I consider him as my brother and he thinks of me as his little sister.

The question shouldn’t be whether men and women CAN be friends, only whether they SHOULD! People CAN do whatever they want; it doesn’t mean that it’s right. It is against Halacha to be friendly to a man. I understand that it can be hard to ignore friendly overtures from a man especially when you are involved in his life one way or another, such as family friends or Shabbos guests. But keep in mind that in the long run it is worth the s’char for being careful.

This is a very interesting discussion. I have changed my mind about this topic quite a few times over the last 15 years. I used to think that there was such a thing as platonic relationships until I received a very blunt explanation from a guy about how guys think. I felt so disgusted by what I heard. I was so upset. I strongly felt (and still feel) that girls are not educated enough (or at all) about the opposite $ex. We were just TOLD that we were not allowed to talk to boys. Some listened, most did not. And a lot of us suffered the consequences. My friends and I all married high school boyfriends. All the couples got together every Shabbos (for meals), sundays, etc…. We knew everything about each other’s personal and private lives. To the extent that we went to the mikva together on occasion. I know this is digressing off the main question, but what I am trying to prove is that inter-mingeling (is that a word?) and being super comfortable with other couples and members of the other $ex is not good. Things can and do get inappropriate. Once I was divorced (or actually separated) a lot of the husbands became much friendlier. They started sharing things with me that they didn’t want their wives to know. I continuously told them that I was friends with their wives first. Fast Forward a few years and there I was “friends” with guyz again. I was no longer in a structured married life or “frum” community. I found even the gay guys I met to push the boundaries and most men I met behaved inappropriately. I will admit that I behaved in a poor manner as well (alcohol was a main contributor.) I became “friends” with a married man. We had a very strong emotional realtionship, which I recently ended because I realized how harmful it was to his marriage and how even more harmful it was to myself. I am not proud of what I have done but I choose to look forward. You may say that I am a more $exual person or that my specific circumstances caused me to behave in terrible ways with “friends” or any guy I met. And I would probably agree with you. But I would caution any young impressionable girl to keep her distance from casual friendships. They are dangerous.

I will say this much I was a very attractive teenager and I never had a platonic friendship, all guys I was friends with would end up asking me out or making a ‘move’ and I did actually have a guy best friend for many years whom I felt I had a platonic friendship with, however in the end I developed feeling for him and discovered he became my friend initially in the hopes of something happening between us, in case you are wondering no it did not work out between us.

I’m BT and every boyfriend I had started out as a good friend. So NOPE I don’t think men and women should be friends, I think it’s pretty naive! Sure be pleasant and friendly, but don’t overstep those boundaries. You never know who’s feeling lonely in their marriage.

I think men and women can be platonic friends–but it’s much harder if you’re single. When I was single, every time I was friendly with a guy I was evaluating them as relationship/marriage material, and I know for a fact that at least some of them were thinking the same about me. That elevates every conversation into potential flirting, and makes the friendship fraught with s-xual tension whether you intend it or not.

Do you think men and women have different opinions on this subject?

I think that gender doesn’t determine opinion.

I think different opinions on this subject are based on individuals, not by gender.

I think men are more willing to admit this fact (that there is always an undercurrent for something more).

of course!

It depends on how they grew up and/or their individual personalities. There are men of all different backgrounds who will eye every woman they see, and there are men who will respect women and see them as people–not just mating material, no matter what their religiosity level is.

We are women, so we’d like to think the answer is yes. Talk to the men about their feelings. They can have self-control, they could block out those feelings, but bottom line: It’s something they really can’t help feeling. Emotions aren’t ruled by logic. We can choose not to act upon those emotions, but I believe, and this clip shows, that the emotions are always there.

Only men who have not been brought up around women and can see women as friends and not just members of the opposite sex.

Do you think those raised in a segregated society would have a harder being platonic friends?

Yes, even though they may have experienced strong sibling relationships with the opposite gender.

I think people raised in segregated societies would have more difficulties, but I don’t have that personal experience.

I don’t think growing up more segregated makes a substantial difference.

yes because people in a segregated society ONLY associate male/female interactions as being for marriage.

In general, yes, but personality also comes into play.

Yes

Would someone who grew up in a co-ed environment have an easier time being platonic friends?

Yes, of course, our sense of what is possible is often shaped by our experience.

Yes, that is my experience, raised in a co-ed society.

I think it’s probably easier for females who grew up around males. Who learned the boundaries early on. Not every boy wants to **** you and you don’t want to **** every boy you meet. Particularly if you are religious and not into touching boys anyway. Maybe that’s a plus: the negia thing. Keeps inyanim in perspective.

yes! I definitely do. Im a BT , and I had male friends growing up and in college, and there wasn’t anything wrong with it. of course now being frum and married I have way less male friends, but im not socially awkward around males as are some FFB women I know.

Most likely yes, but, then again, there is always that pig in every group who look at all women as potential sleeping partners.

Most definitely.

Can men and women have platonic friendships in the workplace, school, or professional settings?

The term “platonic friendship” can have a wide variety of meanings. I believe that many people have positive feelings about a colleague, mentor, protege, teacher, or student. But when those positive feelings lead to an interest in confiding personal lives or spending too much time together, there is a risk to anyone, Jew or non Jew, male or female, sheltered or not, of developing an “emotional affair”, where more attention can be paid to the friend than to the spouse.

Yes, men and women (some) can have platonic relationships in school, work. professional settings. Actually, especially in work situations where time together is limited by definition.

In a professional setting it may be a bit easier because its more formal and structured.

yes. its a matter of knowing boundaries. for example, a male friend I have at work. we really only socialize AT work, not outside of work, unless it is with other coworkers. there are no texts / emails etc.

Yes. Most professional environments demand that.

Yes. I would say I was friends with my boss who was a Rabbi for a professional youth organisation. We joked around, I was close friends with his wife and we were a team.

Can men and women be platonic friends as two couples?

Platonic friendships as couples can work nicely, but it is wisest to limit the more personal exchanges to spouse or same gender friend.

Couples where both men are friends and both women are friends are great – and hard to find. Couples where the wife is friends with the other DH and vice versa – probably wouldn’t work well.

I’m FFB and never had platonic guy friends, but I do have to say this:
My husband and I are part of a group of couples in which all of us women are very good friends and so are all the men. Most times when we all get together our conversations end up divided by gender, just based on the things we like to talk about Smile. Of course when we’re all sitting at the same table our conversations overlap sometimes, but I don’t think any of us have ever crossed inappropriate lines. If I saw one of their husbands we could have a friendly conversation, and vice versa with my husband and one of my friends, but I don’t think that affects our marriage. We LOVE that we can get together with a few other couples and both have a great time!

I used to socialize with a group of couples just like this, until my friend’s dh decided to have an affair with her best friend. I’m not against couples getting together for meals and such, but couples dating is disgusting un Jewish behavior in my opinion, and asking for trouble.

I have seen first-hand how couple’s dating turns into couples divorcing. So I answered maybe (men and women can be just friends).

In a couple setting it may also work easier because your spouse is there to limit the friendship

depends on the community, but for me, yes. most of my male friends at this point are my husbands friends, and im closer with their wives. we spend time together on shabbos etc

We generally get together for Shabbos meals or Chanukah parties etc. When our friends are in town, yes we will get together in a restaurant so that I can catch up with my friend and he can catch up with his. Generally when it’s just two couples we end up with two separate conversations.

Yes! This question makes it seem like humans are animals with uncontrollable sexual urges who will try to mate anything of the oppoiste gender!

Yes, of course. My DH loves my BFF and her DH and I love my BFF and her DH too!

Would a married person have an easier time being platonic friends?

Single or married can both be susceptible to crossing lines. The only Platonic friendship I feel truly safe about is one with an old childhood family friend who is gay, and even there, limits are wise.

I have an old platonic guy friend, since we are both married, I do make a point of always telling my husband when I speak to him or when we email, just updating DH about what is going on. And DH has become friends with my male friend and I have become friends with friend’s wife. I think that trust and respect is necessary. I would never have anything private with my friend that I didn’t tell my DH about.

yes. being committed to my spouse means that I wouldn’t really be alone with the male friend, it would more often than not be a couples gathering, which we are okay with

Not necessarily. A person in a good marriage would, though.

No, why would they?

Now that I’m happily married and have been for many years, I find it a lot easier to be friends with guys. I’m no longer evaluating them as potential life partners, so we can just be friends.

Would people pick better marriage partners if they knew how to be friends beforehand?

I have seen no evidence that having had cross gender friendships before marriage makes one a better marital partner. As mentioned above, those who grow up in more sheltered homes may have learned how to understand and relate to the opposite gender via siblings or cousins.

Don’t know if people would be better marriage partners if they knew how to be friends first.

I don’t think it helps you pick a better marriage partner if you are friends with men beforehand.

not necessarily

I don’t think one has anything to do with the other. There are happy marriages and problematic marriages in all circles.

Yes, I think so.

What orthodox group do you identify with?

I call myself Just Plain Frum (JPF). husband is modern orthodox, my kids tend yeshivish. All have influenced my thinking.

I’m an MO (modern orthodox) FFB (frum from birth)

modern yeshivish … BT (baal teshuva)

Sephardic

FFB LWMO (left wing modern orthodox)

Rabbi Gedalyah Dov Schwartz, is the Av Beis Din of the Chicago Rabbinical Council and the Rabbinical Council of America.  He is a big advocate of the concept, “If you know something, say something,” when it comes to reporting child abuse to the police.  If someone knows or strongly suspects a child is being abused, Rabbi Schwartz emphasizes that it is not loshon horah nor mesira to report the abuse to authorities.  Hear his no-nonsense views on the subject in this video:

A number of years ago, Chicago became the first American city to develop protocols for dealing with abuse within the Jewish orthodox community. Rabbi Schwartz, along with Rabbi Avraham Chaim Levin, Telshe Rosh Yeshiva, Rabbi Zev Cohen, Rav of Adas Yeshurun Anshe Knesses Israel, and Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst, Dayan, Agudath Israel of Illinois set up a special Beis Din to rule on cases of child sexual abuse within the orthodox community.

One of the important elements of this special beis din in Chicago, is that its goal is to incorporate different viewpoints from within the orthodox community.  This inclusive perspective is the result of the beis din being led by both Rabbi Schwartz and Rabbi Levin. Both of these men represent different factions of the Chicago orthodox community.  From my own layman’s perspective, Rabbi Schwartz serves more of the modern/centrist orthodox communities, while Rabbi Levin serves the more yeshivish or haredi members of the Chicago community.  Rabbi Cohen and Rabbi Fuerst also represent a more haredi viewpoint, although people from all walks of orthodox life are counted among their followers.  Although the special beis din is touted as containing a variety of voices from the spectrum of the frum community, in my opinion, Rabbi Schwartz is the only varying hashkafic viewpoint represented.

A number of years ago, I attended a community meeting that talked about the establishment of this special beis din, in response to the publicity of a few horrifying cases of child sexual abuse occurring in the Chicago community.  The concerns I had with the concept were:

1. Creating a beis din to handle abuse cases perpetuates the habit of not reporting such occurrences to the police.

2. The beis din is the body that determines whether or not authorities need to become involved.  While the rabbis do have professional social workers and therapists advising them on a case by case basis, the ultimate decision is still in the hands of non-mental health professionals who might not understand the extreme rate of recidivism among pedophiles.

3. The beis din not only has the ability to prevent authorities from being aware of potentially dangerous individuals, it also prevents the community from being made aware of them.

4. The beis din attempts to protect the identity of the accused individual (thereby also protecting the privacy of the victim) by managing them on their own.  For example, if someone’s level of threat is not determined to be severe enough to contact police, but enough to put controls into place, they will set forth rules which stipulate that the person cannot go places where they will encounter children (e.g. mikvahs, schools, shuls, playgrounds).  Apparently certain community members (shul rabbis, school principals, etc.) could be informed about the alleged perpetrator.  However, these rules, for the most part, are to be self-enforced by the accused individual.   There was no mention of a shomer being assigned to suspected abusers.

The issue of whether or not pedophiles or other abusers can be managed within the frum community is a perplexing one.  On the one hand, it is not unheard of for false allegations to be made toward innocent individuals.  Day care sex abuse hysteria is a phenomenon that first came to light in the 1980s and early 1990s, where convictions for mass abuse in homes, day cares, and babysitting facilities were eventually overturned when victims admitted to lying or being coerced into pressing charges.  Of course none of the lives of those falsely accused will ever be the same again.

The other side of the coin is that if someone really is guilty but not brought to the police, they are roaming the community free to perpetrate another crime.  Recently, another report of an alleged orthodox abuser came to light in the Chicago Tribune.  Many people in the Chicago community are angry to find out that the alleged incident happened six years ago, and was apparently brought to the attention of the special beis din.  The family decided not to press charges, and the man has been living freely in the West Rogers Park community.  Now that the victim is old enough to press charges on his own, he is doing so.

The general public in our community never knew that this man posed a potential threat.  One has to wonder how many other folks are walking freely through our streets, having gotten a pass from the beis din.  As parents, do we have the right to information that could protect the well being of our children?  In the secular world, those charged and convicted of sex crimes are required to report their whereabouts to authorities, not live within a certain distance of schools, parks, or other areas heavily populated with children, and be registered in a publicly accessible nationwide database.

It’s interesting to note that in the revelation of abuse cases within the community, there are always people who are “in the know” through the community grapevine.  When stories come out, there will be people who nonchalantly say something like, “Oh, yes! We’ve known about him for ages.  We always tell our kids to stay away from his house.”  Obviously, the grapevine is a very inefficient way to garner useful information.  If you ask those people why they didn’t say anything, they will usually respond that it was just “generally known,” and since they didn’t have any first hand evidence, it would be loshon horah.  Being weird isn’t a crime, is it?

Living in the United States, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  I understand the horrible ramifications of accusing an innocent person of child abuse.  However, if it is determined that the person in question is guilty, even if the family does not want to press charges, there has to be a better way to protect the community from further crimes this person may commit.  Rabbis are not mandated reporters.  That means that they have no legal obligation under United States law to report a crime that a congregant confesses.  Social workers, psychologists, and physicians are mandated reporters.  Presumably, the mental health care professionals that provide guidance to the special beis din would be required to report all cases to the authorities.

The issue of mandated reporting of abuse and adherence to halachah differs among the groups represented within the special beis din.  The RCA, which Rabbi Schwartz heads, says that Jewish mandated reporters need to comply with the law and report known cases directly to the police and Child Protective Services.  The Adudath Israel position, of which Rabbi Fuerst represents, says that even Jewish mandated reporters must first consult with a rabbi before reporting a fellow Jew.

I know that the issues involved are incredibly complex and potentially life threatening to all parties in many ways.  However, as a mother, I don’t feel like the community has a grip on the behavior and whereabouts of the child abusers in our midst.  I can understand the parents of victims who don’t want to put their children through the pain and exposure of a lengthy trial.  Unfortunately, many times there isn’t enough concrete evidence to result in a conviction (I learned this years ago from a friend who worked with the sex abuse prevention group, Project Shield).

Even if families victimized by sex offenders choose to walk away from the situation and move on without seeking retribution, they are still leaving other children open to becoming the next victims.  For that reason alone, even if the chance of conviction is minimal, it’s worth the time and tears to report the crime to police and prevent another child from being hurt.  To me, preventing child abuse is a case of pikuach nefesh, and what other halacha could be more important than saving a life?

I wanted to jot down a quick thought about the sad story of Leah Vincent. Leah Vincent was recently interviewed on the Katie Couric show about her escape from ultra orthodox Judaism:

From accounts of those who knew her, Leah Vincent was a bright girl who was full of fun. As a precocious child, she was sent to a post high school girls seminary in Israel at the young age of 16. It isn’t surprising, with those accounts, that Leah went on to obtain a Master in Public Policy (MPP) from Harvard University in her secular life. Apparently, the yeshivish family she comes from is considered fairly mainstream and not extreme in their viewpoints. She apparently has a few siblings who have gone on to college, and reportedly has a brother-in-law who is a lawyer. Why then, if other family members had gone to college, were her parents so adamant that she stay within the frum community and not pursue goals within the wider secular world?

Obviously, those of us on the outside don’t know all the specifics of what happened between Leah and her parents. However, from the vantage point of my surface view, my guess is that her parents fell into the reactionary trap of upping the ante. What do I mean by this? Simply that when a parent fears that they are losing their child, they will take an increasingly strict position on matters beyond what they would normally hold in order to stop their child’s behavior.

Those that are familiar with Leah Vincent’s family say that while they are a solidly yeshivish and frum family, they are also pretty chilled, laid back, and accepting of Jews on all levels of frumkeit. They have trouble reconciling the easy going rabbi and rebbitzin they know, to the ultra orthodox parents who yanked their daughter Leah out of her Israeli seminary and brought her home for wearing a sweater that was too tight. They have trouble imagining the compassionate torah leaders of their shul and community kicking their daughter out of their home so that she wouldn’t taint her siblings with her heretical ways.

I think that the answer is that fear leads people to behave in ways they normally wouldn’t. For whatever reasons, again we are not privy to all the details, Leah’s parents feared that she would abandon her orthodox Jewish faith. They knew they had a bright, creative, and precocious child and they fought to keep control over her curiosity. Instead of trying to keep a tight lid on a boiling pot, they would have been better off telling her, “Hashem has given you both a gift and a challenge. Your gift is your intellect and your potential to do wonderful things in this world. Your challenge is to go out into the wider world to hone your talents and yet still stay true to who you are as a Jewish woman. We want to help you navigate this path so that you fulfill your potential as both a scholarly professional and as an observant Jew.”

By trying to squash Leah’s dreams, they ultimately drove her away from the torah observant community altogether. Listening to Leah speak, I feel sadness as an orthodox Jewish woman. Sad because our community needs intelligent, compassionate, and well-spoken women like Leah Vincent. How many more women will be turned away from the orthodox Jewish community because they don’t conform to the strict societal expectations of how a Jewish woman is supposed to behave? We need to nurture souls like Leah Vincent, not drive them away because of our own expectations. Not take a harder line than we would with non-family members because having a child who is going off the derech is a bad reflection upon us. Making decisions out of fear or shame can never have a positive outcome.

I would posit that many of our “at-risk” youth who question Judaism, society, rabbanim, halachot, chumrot – those young people who are having a crisis of faith – they are among our best and brightest. Why? Because they have the ability to question. They have the capacity to think outside of the box. They have the vision to know that there is more than one valid opinion on how to do things. They have the courage to step out of line and say they don’t agree. I would suggest that those young folks going off-the derech have the capability of being the future leaders of klal yisrael. The difference between going off the derech and remaining frum depends on how they are guided, how their concerns are addressed, the freedom they are given to question, and the amount of love they receive in the exchange. As parents, teachers, rabbis, and friends, we have a tremendous amount of power to turn a teen away from yiddishkeit forever, or to broker a lasting commitment that will benefit an entire people. It’s all about perspective.

Photo from wrongsideoftheart.com

I recently found an interesting blog written by Rebecca M. Ross, entitled Stop Kiruv Now.  Her blog discusses the pitfalls of the Jewish kiruv (“bringing close” in Hebrew) movement.  It is interesting reading and makes me think back to my own journey into orthodoxy in my early 20s.  Rebecca’s main complaint with the kiruv system seems to be the aggressive and sometimes dishonest intentions of those charged with bringing non-observant Jews into the fold of orthodoxy.

One of the points brought out is that Jewish kiruv workers often target high school and college age kids who are still in their formative years and more susceptible to the influence of others.  I listened to an online radio show that interviewed Rebecca, where she discusses in more depth her issues with the kiruv movement.  I had to laugh at the image portrayed of college campus kiruv workers standing in the middle of the quad and asking each student who files past, “Are you Jewish?  No? Are YOU Jewish?”  The Hillel director at my college campus was famous for trying to identify potential Jewish faculty and students.  It became a running joke among the Jewish students.

Often, these campus groups start out by speaking to students in their common language.  They impress upon these kids that they can be both religious and immersed in the 21st century at the same time.  They inform students that they can both meet their educational and career goals while at the same time achieving their full religious potential.  Oftentimes, college students will be offered free or highly subsidized trips to Israel under the guise of Jewish student leadership conferences, but once the student arrives, they find themselves spending full days learning in orthodox seminaries and yeshivot, and being offered the chance to remain there for an  indefinite period of time.  In a year’s time, some students find themselves fully immersed in Torah study, wearing long skirts and sleeves, black hats and jackets, and fully into the baal teshuvah scene, college but a distant memory.

As a baal teshuvah, I can clearly remember attending classes that instructed newly religious Jews that kibud av v’aim (honoring one’s father and mother) does not apply when your parents ask or advise you to do something which is against the Torah.  Likewise, if one wants to make aliyah to Israel, but their parents want them to stay in America, one does not have to obey them.  So many rifts are formed between newly religious young people and their non-religious parents, based on the guidance of kiruv workers.

Not that any kiruv professional would ever advise a child to be chutzpedik (disrespectful) to a non-religious parent, but adherence to Hashem and halachah come before, say, eating the annual treif Thanksgiving meal prepared by your mother.  You must respectfully ask that your mother make the entire meal kosher (keeping in mind that you are not having the meal for a holiday seudah but a random family get together because Thanksgiving is really a non-Jewish holiday), or show up with your own kosher food, or show up but don’t eat anything, or decline the invitation altogether – all the while being pleasant, polite, and reasonable in your requests and ultimatums.  How could these options possibly have a negative impact on shalom bayis?

One aspect of kiruv that has always bothered me is that no matter how integrated a baal teshuvah (BT) becomes into orthodox society, they will still be considered as a separate sub-society to the larger frum from birth (FFB) community when it comes to areas of importance, such as marriage.  The all important yichus (family lineage/heritage) is alive and well when it comes to shidduchim (matchmaking).  I know someone (FFB) who dated a boy from a prominent Lubavitch family going back many generations.  She told me that in the Chabad Lubavitch world, BTs and FFBs are almost never set up as marriage prospects.  The FFBs marry the FFBs and the BTs marry the BTs.  It seems very hypocritical that a movement like Chabad, which is so involved in bringing Jews back into the fold, would make this distinction.  Yes, you are good enough to be my neighbor, go to my shul, attend my schools, but don’t think about marrying my daughter!

I saw a recent video of the chassana (wedding) of two Hasidic African American converts in Boro Park.  I believe that they are Nikolsburg hasidim, but I could be wrong.  The dancing was very leibedik (joyful and lively), and the comments on the article remarked on the beauty and wonder of such a scene.  Nothing validates frum people more than folks hailing from completely different cultures, religions, or ethnicities who find orthodox Judaism so enticing that they abandon their former ways and join the tribe.

Looking at the chosson and kallah on their happy day, surrounded by hundreds of smiling white hasidim, I have to ask the obvious and unpopular question – which of the joyful guests at this wedding will allow their sons or daughters/grandsons or granddaughters to marry this couple’s children in twenty years?  If the kiruv cultured Lubavitch movement doesn’t want baal teshuvahs, who look like them, to marry into their Lubavitch dynasties, how will this African American ger (convert) couple fare in the Nikolsburg sect?  Only time will tell, but unless Nikolsburg has a growing baal teshuvah population to widen the marriage pool, my pessimistic side tells me that there will be a bumpy road ahead.

Image from doubtingfaith.com

This summer has been a whirlwind of activity, with hardly any time to formulate a coherent thought in my own head, much less put one down on paper.  However, there have been so many topics that I have wanted to think about and write about.  Perhaps once the school year begins for my kids and yom tov madness dies down I will have time to write again.

In the meantime, before this fleeting thought leaves my wasted brain only to be forgotten forever, I wanted to speak about a concerning phenomenon that I have read about before, but never heard verbalized so directly as in a recent conversation I had with an orthodox woman.  The phenomenon I speak of is that of deifying gedolim.  Taking the torah giants of our age, or that of any age really, and turning them into G-ds in their own right.

I have always been told that there are certain men who have a direct link to Hashem.  Rabbis who can posken difficult shailas (answer questions on life issues based in accordance with Jewish law) on behalf of klal yisroel, and we can be certain that their advice is what Hashem commands because of their deep level of torah knowledge and spirituality.  Their piety puts them on a different madrega (step/level) than the rest of us because of their direct link to the Abishter (G-d).  Apparently this link continues even after their deaths, because a favorite pastime among frum Jews is to daven by the kevers (graves) of our holiest ancestors who can FedEx our prayers up to Olam Ha-Ba (the afterlife/heaven) and get them directly on Hashem’s to-do list ASAP.

This viewpoint that our past and present gedolim are infallible and perfect has been taken to a new level in the late 20th and early 21st century.  Much has been written about Artscroll revisionism.  Many readers have complained that Artscroll’s biographies of gedolim leave out important facts such as college educations, careers, and general worldly knowledge that many of our former leaders had accomplished.  To read their life stories from Artscroll’s perspective is to read examples of lives lived in a Jewish bubble of torah learning, where manna seemingly continued to fall from heaven, and no man ever needed to toil for his daily bread.  Rabbi Harry Maryles wrote an article in which he quotes ArtScroll founder and publisher, Rabbi Nosson Scherman, who was asked about the accuracy of Artscroll’s rabbinic biographies in an interview a few years ago -

“He (Scherman) said it is because ArtScroll isn’t interested in giving a full historical account of a person’s life. They are only interested in reporting that part of a person’s life that portrays him (or her) in ways that will inspire the reader.

How, he asks asks, does saying something (Charedim consider) negative do that? Besides – exposing something (they consider) negative might hurt the surviving family. He said there is absolutely no benefit in knowing unflattering truths of history anyway… What is gained by it?”

For a more in-depth look on Jewish historical revisionism, it pays to read Rabbi Jacob Schacher’s interesting paper.  Through his research, he debunks a number of stories about famous rabbis that serve to validate the lifestyle and goals of the ultra orthodox community today.  It is also interesting to read the interview on the Rationislist Judaism blog of Rav Nosson Kamenetzky, whose 2002 banned book, “The Making of a Godol,” which dealt with the biographies of American Haredi leaders in the 19th and 20th centuries, caused an uproar among the current rabbinic leadership.

Before I get lost in muddle of related research, I’ll get back to the conversation which led me to think about deification of our gedolim.  I was speaking with a woman who I would characterize as “modern haredi.”  To me, she opitimizes the ultimate modern haredi woman.  She is fervently religious, but also well educated and worldly, able to provide for her family in a way most men would be jealous of.  Her husband is an amazing and sincere rabbi who learned for many years, but now also works in a professional capacity.

Although I know that she and her family rely on daas torah (the rulings of rabbis) for many decisions in their lives, I was surprised to find how much she vehemently defended any position the gedolim in her community took on any issue.  She expressed an unthinking agreement and blind following of any psak her gedolim made – even though she had never met most personally and only saw one speak in person one time.  I was surprised by her blind allegiance because she is in a position of authority at work and very influential in local community organizations.   She can be a very take charge and opinionated person in her daily life.  This isn’t to say she isn’t also kind and soft spoken and that her family isn’t first on her priority list.  She is multidimensional.

She spoke of one rabbi who she unquestioningly follows on any opinion.  When someone else brought up the suspicion that this rabbi was of very advanced age and possibly suffering from dementia or a failing memory, she dismissed it as nonsense and said that she had heard him speak and that he was sharp as a tack.  When someone suggested that there was talk that those close to the rav were using him to pursue their own agendas and issuing psaks in his name, she became incredibly angry and agitated.  When I suggested that these great rabbis were also human beings, and as such, subject to human infirmities and failings, she told me that the gedolim were not subject to age, infirmity, and illness the way the rest of us are.  They remained completely coherent and clear headed right up until the end because of their connection to Hashem.  We cannot possibly comprehend the high level that they are on.

This conversation scared me.  I don’t think that I would have been as concerned if I were talking to a brand new Breslover Na Nach baal teshuva in Jerusalem (no disrespect intended).  However, I was talking to a frum-from-birth educated woman who I respect and admire, and who is rational in all other areas of her life.  Where does the line get crossed between faith in our leaders and avodah zarah (idol worship)?  Is it ok to make our rabbinic leadership into idols or G-ds in their own right?  I have suddenly found myself in a world where to question or critique the rabbinic leadership of our generation or past generations is akin to blasphemy.  Is this Judaism we are practicing or some new religion ruled by multiple deities to be blindly obeyed under threat of being labelled a heretic?

Now I can’t get that tune from Jason Mraz out of my head

I decided to write about post about a website called, Halachically Yours, that states it’s purpose as being:

“…a workshop and collection of resources for strengthening physical intimacy in the halacha-observant community…this need has also become apparent through conversations with individuals from a range of observant communities who expressed a wish that there was more education, more conversation, more openness, and fewer assumptions. “

I mentioned this website in the comment section of my post about going to the mikvah, or the lack thereof, and it sparked an interesting conversation.

Basically, Halachically Yours is an attempt to get frum couples to have open and explicit conversations about what goes on their bedrooms.  Their seminar materials would probably be eye opening even for non-religious couples.  It doesn’t seem that the organization is being run under any particular rabbinic guidance, but rather, the advice is to AYLOR (ask your local orthodox rabbi) as to whether any of the suggested activities are permissible.

The seminar is intended to be conducted with a mixed gender group of married couples, with the allowance for separate sex breakaway sessions for some of the more sensitive topics.  Men and women are to gather together again at the end of the seminar to share what they found to be most helpful, and come up with questions to be addressed at future seminars.

Some of the discussion topics are admirable, such as discussing the right to say no and what constitutes abuse.  They also discuss female and male sexual dysfunction and provide some suggested resources.  There is also a list of books and organizations on sex education topics. The guide also discusses the shame factor that many people have if they are turned on by something unconventional, and how it’s important to learn how to be open with your partner.

The curriculum opens the door for this kind of sharing by providing an “Intimate Exploration Sheet,” where couples can tick off boxes of various sexual scenarios to let each other know what they would be open to trying.  The one obvious factor that’s missing in this sex seminar for the halachically observant community, is any discussion of taharat mishapacha, and how that observance affects the sex lives of frum couples.

While I applaud the effort, I don’t see this becoming mainstream in the orthodox community, especially in haredi communities. I can’t even imagine my modern orthodox shul, for example, giving this kind of seminar in mixed company. I can’t even see them giving this seminar to separate sex classes either. I think there should be a happy medium, and the right time to discuss some of these issues is in chosson/kallah classes. Maybe those same teachers could give refresher courses for married people.

In my community there are classes for taharat mishpacha and communication within marriage, but nothing about what role sex plays (other than the platitudes about husband and wife becoming as one in the “holy act,” yada yada). There is a discussion about the Halachically Yours seminar on a frum women’s forum I look at, and none of the women think something like this would take off in the frum community. Most of them laugh at the idea that this seminar is coming from an orthodox perspective, indicating that the suggested activities are not kosher, which is kind of sad too, in a way.

One commenter wrote -

“Wow, just read the seminar outline download.

It is pretty full on. Even while saying it can be done separately, it encourages the leader to bring the men and women together at the end for a joint discussion.

I’m guessing the suggestions for exercises such as taking your clothes off and looking at each other and in the mirror are supposed to be in private by couples, rather than at the workshop, although it isn’t 100% clear.

My problem with this is, while I do think that couples should talk about and explore/ enjoy their sex life, I find it shockingly untznuis to be discussing it outside the marriage, unless you are talking confidentially to a rav or therapist about a problem.

Normal, non Jewish people grow out of sharing and discussing their sex lives at around the time they start having serious sex, ie when it is all experimental stuff in high school and college, they talk a lot, when they start having a serious relationship, it all stops.

Normal married people don’t sit around in workshops discussing sex. Too intimate, too embarrassing.

And if it is too embarrassing for the relatively open society that surrounds us to discuss, except in the swinging 70s, it is definitely not ok for a community who prides themselves on living a more modest lifestyle where some of us won’t even share that we are pregnant even when it is obvious.

My husband and I are pretty laid back, we hold hands in public, we are ‘obviously tahor’, we aren’t bothered by bodily functions and talk openly to each other in private , which we are comfortable with. I guess most people would call us liberal minded, albeit in private.
But we’d never ever discuss sex with anyone else, however close the friendship.

There is a role for some resources for people who need advice to be able to seek it. Their collection of pamphlets and books they list sounds good.

But no way ever would I condone group discussions or workshops on this subject.”

Her viewpoint was echoed by the other women on the board.

There isn’t much in the way of sexual intimacy education in the orthodox community.  The kallah classes that I took before my wedding were completely focused on the mechanics of how to observe taharat mishpacha and the harchakot.  There was no discussion at all about sex. what to expect, or what was permissible.

After I was married 1 or 2 years, I went to a taharat mishapacha refresher course for young married women.  In that class, there was more explicit conversation about sex within marriage.  There were even discussions about masturbation, oral sex, and the halachic issues.  Actually, it was a great class with lively discussion, as you might imagine!  The rebbetzin who gave the course is married to a rabbi who gives a similar shiur for married men.  However, this was many years ago, and it was an informal class that wasn’t widely advertised.  I know this couple continues to give chosson and kallah classes, but I don’t know if they do their “refresher course” on a regular basis.

I have also been to lectures on “How to Make Your Great Marriage Even Greater!” or something similarly titled.  Those classes mainly focused on the “Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars” discussion on the different communication styles between the sexes.  These talks never spelled out how men and women view sex differently, or what kinds of sexual activities are halachically permissible, or how the laws of taharat mishpacha can sometimes throw a monkey wrench into the works (instead of being the set of laws that supposedly keep intimacy fresh and exciting within a marriage).

I do think that the issues addressed in the Halachically Yours curriculum guide are important.  Certainly, husbands and wives should be able to talk about their most secret desires.  After all, frum married couples only have one outlet for their sexuality.  If there is a discrepancy there, it can lead to problems outside the bedroom as well.  I doubt that this exact seminar will become popular, but I do think that chosson and kallah teachers should be expanding their roles beyond the mechanics of taharat mishpacha by learning how to openly discuss sex with both brides, grooms, newlyweds, and older couples.

Chosson and kallah teachers should use their roles to encourage couples to talk openly to each other about their wants, needs, fears, and frustrations.  Alternatively, chosson and kallah teachers could pair with licensed sex therapists so that their courses have two components – both the halachot and the intimacy education – each taught by the relevant professionals.  More importantly, there should be parenting classes that help parents discuss some of these sensitive issues with their children.  If we teach our kids that it’s ok to ask questions about sex, and we are willing to speak openly with them, they will have a better chance at being able to openly communicate with their future spouses.

The more I read about the off the derech (OTD) community, the more I realize that the only folks who truly go off the derech are the ones who simply fade out to nothing.   Those folks don’t go to Footsteps, they don’t write anonymous blogs about their angst, and they don’t belong to Facebook groups bragging about how they ate 5 forms of chazer at an all you can eat buffet in China Town, stopped off for a dime bag and a bottle of Henny in an alley behind Duane Reade, and scoured the Craigslist Casual Encounters ads on their mobile phone until they found a willing troupe of midgets from the Coney Island Circus Sideshow wanting to party.

The only people who are truly off the derech are the ones who have let everything go, including griping about the ills of the frum community.  Don’t get me wrong, I think the frum community needs disillusioned OTD folks to bring to light problems within the community.  Many formerly frum people have gone on to become activists fighting against abuse happening every day in the orthodox world.  Many fight against the shockingly low standards of English education that are allowed and accepted in some ultra orthodox day schools.  They fight for freedom of information; the right for ultra orthodox citizens to patronize public libraries and have access to books, radio, television, and current news.  They’ve enlightened many of us on travesties that would otherwise go unnoticed and unadvertised if left to the devices of the Jewish orthodox community itself.

My problem isn’t that people go off the derech.  I don’t believe in religious coercion.  I don’t believe that every Jew needs to be orthodox to be a good person.  As I have shared before, I didn’t grow up religious, and I was still raised with good values.  I didn’t become religious to escape a horrific drug filled, sex crazed, and violent secular life.  I became religious to enhance the good life I already had.  For myself, if I were to go off the derech, I would literally go off onto my own life.  If I chose to leave the community, I would leave without further engagement.  The fact that I grapple with issues of concern about the frum world, speaks to the fact that I still care enough to grapple with them.  If I decided to check out, these issues would no longer concern me.

Which is why I have to wonder if the OTD community is merely another religious/social movement in and of itself?  From what I can gather from social media sites like Facebook and Twitter, people involved in the OTD movement (is movement an apropos term?) have certain expectations of their members.  Some of the lesser expectations involve embracing values such as political liberalism, environmentalism, atheism, and the authority of science.

In addition to the OTDer’s new found secular enlightenment, a major expectation for group members is irreverence for their former way of life.  This includes a general lack of respect for former rabbinic and community leaders who have wronged them.  Another commonality is irreverence toward the formalized rituals they previously engaged in or language that they formerly used.  For example, instead of using the term “Hakadosh Baruch Hu” (The holy one, blessed be He) one will often find the satirical use of, “Hakakosh Baruch Hu,” kokosh being a kind of cake often found in kosher bakeries and eaten on shabbos or festive occasions.

There was a recent story going around about the king of the OTDers, Ari Mandel, and his quest to raise money for his marathon run on behalf of Chai Lifeline.  One of his Facebook followers offered to donate $1,000 to Ari’s cause if he would keep one Shabbos.  Ari agreed, and his charitable cause is $1,000 richer.  Many people found the humor in the situation, and actually thought it was quite a beautiful thing.  However, there were those in the OTD community who felt that Mandel was selling out.  As Ari Mandel has become an unofficial representative of the OTD community (he has been interviewed in print, radio, and television about his exodus from the Chassidic community), there were those who felt betrayed by his (albeit temporary) return to Shabbos observance.

To me, going off the derech means freeing yourself from the chains of the rigid communal rules and expectations of orthodoxy. How is the OTD movement any different from ultra orthodox Judaism at its core, if it becomes yet another society with rigid rules and expectations?  Expectations, which, if they aren’t met, earn its members ridicule or shunning. It’s like the feminist movement that advocates for women to have the right to pursue any path they find meaningful, yet if a woman chooses a traditional path, they are ridiculed and labeled as oppressed.  Again, I have no gripe against the off the derech community.  I think it’s a healthy thing to form connections with other people who share similar experiences.  My question is simply whether or not OTD folks are exchanging one religion for another?

I was surprised this morning to read an article in the Windy City Times about frum gay activist, Goldie Goldbloom, who recently gave a lecture, sponsored by Lavender University, on being gay in the orthodox community. The timing of her lecture coincides with Illinois becoming the 15th state to legalize same sex marriage.  The lecture is linked below.

My surprise is on two levels. The first level is that I am surprised to discover that Goldbloom is the author of a provocative new blog called, Frum Gay Girl.  I’ve been reading this blog for awhile, fascinated by the stories of frum lesbian women, some closeted and some out, within the orthodox community.  Perhaps more fascinating is that the women interviewed come from ultra orthodox or chassidish communities.  Goldie Goldbloom identifies as chassidish, and says that she lives in the chassidish community of West Rogers Park.  Hence, my second level of surprise.

I have never heard of nor met Goldie Goldbloom.  I also live in West Rogers Park, but I identify as modern orthodox, and my children attend schools that cater more to the modern orthodox community.  Interestingly, she mentions a lecture that happened a few years ago, sponsored by the Chicago Rabbinical Council, that advocated for compassion and inclusion of frum gay Jews.  It was a lecture that I attended, and it’s interesting to know that she was also in the audience.  I remember not recognizing anyone in the packed lecture hall, and feeling alone (among my personal acquaintances) in my desire to have gay or lesbian Jews feel accepted in our community.  I wondered if the audience members were actually gay people, friends and family of gay people, or simply professionals working within the community who dealt with frum gay people (it’s less risky to attend such an event from the detached vantage point of a professional).

In her lecture, Goldbloom speaks about a presentation given that night by Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, the head of the London Beis Din, who counsels and advocates on behalf of frum gay Jews.  She mentions four points that Rabbi Rapoport finds essential when trying to assist gay Jews – that they shouldn’t lose their lives due to depression, drugs, or risky sexual behavior; that homosexual Jews shouldn’t lose their family and friends; that they shouldn’t lose their rabbis, shuls or communities; and that they shouldn’t lose their relationship with God.

Goldbloom is adamant that she can and will live both as an orthodox Jew and an openly gay woman.  She doesn’t believe it needs to be one or the other.  She won’t give up her faith, and she is incapable of giving up her sexual orientation.  She recounts a disturbing conversation with an orthodox principal of a Jewish day school where she was thinking of transferring her son.  The rabbi had one question to ask her, “Do you have gay sex?”  He told her that if she was having gay sex then her son did not belong in his school.  She responded, “Do your kids know when you have sex?”  In other words, kids should not know when their parents are having sex, whether gay or straight – much less, what kind of sex they are having.  What goes on in her bedroom should have no relevance as to whether or not her son attends an orthodox school.

Goldbloom said that in 2 1/2 months, her blog, Frum Gay Girl, has gotten 0ver 28,000 views from across the globe.  Over 1/3 of viewers are from other extremist societies such as Iraq and Iran.  Goldbloom says that it’s indicative that issues of homosexuality and acceptance are universal among right wing societies. The blog contains “voices from the closet” in the ultra orthodox community.  In one anecdote, Goldbloom talks about posting an interview with a Satmar gay woman.  The next morning, she got a note from her Chicago area Satmar rebbetzin who had been shown the blog.  Goldbloom and this rebbetzin are friends and have a good repore, so the rebbetzin was honest when she wrote  “I know it’s not PC (politically correct) to say, but I really wish gay people would go back in the closet!”  Goldbloom said it was too late, the closet door is already open.

Goldbloom’s main point was that LGBT people need to stake their claim in the orthodox world and not be driven out.  That doesn’t mean that they have to fly their rainbow flag in the middle of shemoneh esrei, it just mean that they have to remain part of the community.  It’s easy to demonize and stereotype gay people when you don’t know any.  Many frum people claim that there are no homosexual Jews.  Goldbloom cites an interview done by Oprah Winfrey, in which a group of Lubavitch women insist that they don’t know anyone who is homosexual.  They say this an extreme occurance and even if it did happen the person in question would not broadcast it to the community.

By her own example, Goldbloom is proving that there is a way to remain both frum and gay. While she admits that she lost some friends by coming out, she also says that she is pleasantly surprised by how many people in her shul and community remain welcoming. If Goldbloom can maintain both identities, it is possible for other gay Jews to also live authentically as both Jews and homosexuals, without denying either facet of themselves.

Taking it to the streets….doing it old school with the Doobie Brothers, but I digress…..

There have long been grumblings in 20^th and 21^st century America that beth dins (Jewish courts made up of three rabbis who decide on halachic and civil disputes) have no teeth to back up their rulings.  In the past, Jewish communities relied heavily on Jewish courts to settle all manner of disputes.  There was the very real fear that Jews would never get a fair hearing in non-Jewish courts, and therefore, it was wise for all parties involved to have legal matters settled within the community.  Any Jew who went to the secular courts over the beth din, was labeled as a moser (informant), because they put not only themselves, but potentially the entire community, at risk by airing their dirty laundry in public.  Throughout history, the punishment of a moser would be at worst death and at best, excommunication.

Punishments, fines, or sanctions handed down by a beth din were enforceable during those times when Jews lived in small tight knit communities.  With enemies all around, Jews needed the protection of their community and couldn’t afford to be alientated.  When Jews were almost entirely dependent on their own small kehilla, the beth din could make a non compliant convict’s life untenable.  Shunning a person meant that they could no longer daven in shul, do business with other Jews, or socialize with their friends and family.  Being excommunicated (called being put in cherim), was a punishment to be avoided at all costs.

Nowadays, we live in a much different society.  Jewish communities are scattered across the the country and the globe.  In America, we are fortunate to live in a society that has strict rules regarding discrimination and anti-Semitism.  It is reasonable to assume a Jew will get a fair trial if they bring a complaint to secular court.  This compels more people to take their cases to civil courts, rather than Jewish courts, where the punishments are often unenforceable.  This defection happens despite the exhortation of Jewish leaders to bring legal disputes to the beth din before approaching the non-Jewish legal system for assistance.

Additionally, as the orthodox Jewish community grows and expands, beth dins are popping up everywhere to serve them.  As such, there are many options to choose from when bringing a case to a Jewish court.  Ironically, this weakens the power of the Jewish court system, because one party can refuse to abide by the decision of a beth din not of their choosing.  Situations occur where two parties in the same dispute are trying their cases independently between two different Jewish courts, and getting two different rulings – each side refusing to accept the decision of the other beth din.

Today, if a beth din tries to enforce cherim on an uncooperative convict, it’s almost laughable.  Someone put in cherim can most likely continue to live in their current community without repercussion.  If the people of the community do follow the beth din ruling and shun the convict, the offender can simply move to a different community where they are unknown and start life anew.  There is not much a beth din can do (particularly outside of Israel) to effectively enforce punishments anymore.

More importantly, people are starting to use secular courts in instances where they have found Jewish courts to be unwilling or unable to press charges.  I won’t go into the notable cases of child abuse and sexual abuse that were taken to Jewish authorities, only to be swept under the rug - leaving victims no choice but to seek justice from the secular court system.  However, I believe that it is these survivors of abuse that began the revolutionary approach of using social media to speak out about their abuse and the lack of response within the rabbinical system.

By taking their stories to the “virtual street,”  these survivors have brought awareness to the community at large.  The huge response to their stories of abuse have reinforced that the dynamics of the Jewish community have changed.  We are now not only members of our own individual local kehillas, but Jews from all walks of life who are connected together through online networks regardless of geography or hashkafa.  True, there may be different reactions to these stories based individual perspectives, however, the stories would never even have been brought to light if not for the power of the internet.  As such, many Jewish leaders have been forced to change their stance regarding reporting sexual abuse to the secular police and courts.  Whether through education or shaming, the chillul hashem caused by rabbinic courts stifling these accusations has caused a shift in the way sexual abuse is treated within the frum world.

The next wave of Jewish social media activism is happening in the arena of Jewish divorce, or the get.  Obtaining a Jewish divorce is one situation that, in most cases, can’t be remedied by the secular courts.  In some states, the civil courts can impose fines on stubborn husbands who refuse to grant their wives a religious divorce.  However, the husband can always choose to take the financial hit or even jail time, yet still not grant the get.  Women, powerless to petition for a divorce on their own, are completely beholden to their husband and beth din to escape an unhappy marriage.

Without a Jewish divorce, women can never remarry (this is not true for a man, although it isn’t encouraged due to the edict of Rabbenu Gershom).  Any future relationship they engage in will be considered adultery and any future children they have will be mamzerim.  As such, without a willingly given get, religious women are forced to remain alone for the rest of their lives.  When a beth din can’t or won’t push a man into granting a get, some women grow desperate enough to enlist the help of dubious characters.  I liken it to the days before legalized abortions, when women were forced to go to back alley butcher shops to rid themselves of unwanted pregnancies. Where there is desperation, a solution will be found, even if it kills the one seeking respite.

This past week, a heartrending plea from a young agunah (a woman chained in an unhappy marriage, whose husband refuses to grant her a divorce), Gital Dodelson, appeared in the New York Post.  Her story comes on the heels of other women, like Tamar Epstein or Ariella Dadon, who, in their desperation for freedom,  have taken their plights to the virtual streets of the online world.

Their online platforms are becoming more publicized, formalized and organized, as social media savvy organizations are starting to take up their cause.  There is an organization that fights on behalf of agunot, ORA (Organization for the Resolution of Agunot) that publicizes the names and photos of recalcitrant husbands in the hopes of shaming them into granting their wives divorces.  Social coercion to free agunot is also becoming a professional public relations niche.  PR specialist, Shira Dicker, who calls herself “an innovative social agitator,” has taken Dodelson’s case to the virtual streets.  She specializes in using technology such as Facebook, Twitter, and other social media platforms to bring attention to women struggling to halachically end marriages.  Dicker claims that “Free Gital: Tell Avrohom Meir Weiss to Give His Wife a Get” is the first Facebook page set up for an agunah.

Obviously, publicizing one side to any story can lead to slander and falsehoods.  That’s a risk that anyone using social media as a platform to air their grievances has to weigh.  However, the power of social media as a uniting force within the orthodox world can’t be ignored.  When private matters were kept private – when a dispute between to divorcing parties was between husband, wife, close family, and a beth din – a woman might be an agunah and no one would be aware of her plight.  There are women who have suffered in silence for years, assuming that there was no way out of their situation and that no one cared.  The viral reaction to Gital Dodelson’s story reflects the visceral response that people have to those who have been victimized not only by an individual, but by a divorce system that is intrinsically unfair to women, and impotent in its power to change things in that regard.

People are gathering power in online numbers.  Chassidish, haredi, sefardic, yeshivish, modern othodox – all walks of orthodox Jewry who have an online presence are coming together.  They might be vehemently opposed on certain issues, but when they agree, they are a force that Jewish leadership must reckon with.  How this online activism will translate into halachic reinterpretations is anyone’s guess, but certainly, the societal impact of this online solidarity is changing the fabric of 21st century orthodox Judaism.

There have been a number of recent pleas to the Jewish women of the orthodox community to tighten up their observance of tznius. The exhortations range from the sublime to the ridiculous. In every instance, the message is the same. Women are causing men to sin by their provocative way of dress. The point to keep in mind, is that the audience receiving this rebuke, are the very women who make efforts to dress according to the mandates of halacha.

To give an example of the sublime, a Lubavitch blogger, Pop Chassid, wrote a heartfelt appeal to women for modesty. His post sparked outrage among women of the frum community who strive daily to downplay every possible physical attribute a Jewish man might find alluring.  His premise was that as a man, he had natural evil/lustful inclinations that he wanted to abolish.  If only the women in his community would dress according to halacha, overcoming his natural tendencies to be a pervert would be so much easier.

To be fair, Pop Chassid really seemed to be asking for help (hey, summertime in the city is tough on a guy!), but that in no way excuses the fact that he puts the onus on women to help him behave.  He got so much flack for his post that he even wrote another one defiantly explaining, “Why I Don’t Regret My Latest Post.”  If you’re wondering why I haven’t linked to his original plea for modesty – apparently he did ultimately regret it, since it’s been removed from his website! (ETA – Pop Chassid just tweeted me that he will be putting it back up soon IYH.  He took it down because he felt he was the victim of a feminist witch hunt).

Now onto the ridiculous.  Last week there was an article in the 5 Towns Jewish Times by Rabbi Yair Hoffman, entitled, The Gym, the Carpool, and Tzniyus.  Apparently, Rabbi Hoffman makes a habit of standing in the carpool lane during school drop off and looking at women’s legs.  He is upset at the current trend of women dressing to go to the gym directly after their carpool stop.  He is dismayed at the proliferation of leggings he sees on the yiddishe mammelehs dropping their kinderlach off at school in the morning.  Don’t they know that leggings are not tznius, even under a skirt?  Aren’t they aware that leggings attract the male eye to the “polke region” and cause untold harm to the Jewish people?  Additionally, women’s skirts often rise above the kneecaps, which is never permitted, even if said kneecaps are covered by leggings.  If women must wear leggings (in an all women’s gym, of course), then they must wear appropriate clothing to carpool, and change in the privacy of an all female facility for the purposes of exercise.

I did write a comment on the article, which not surprisingly, got moderated and wasn’t published.  It went something like this – If only you were as vigilant about the mitzvah of Shmiras Einayim (guarding your eyes) as you are about intricacies of women’s clothing the world would be a better place. Exercise is normal and healthy, and to ask a harried mother to bring a change of clothing with her each morning, when she is already dressed tznius is ridiculous. Leggings are no different than pantyhose worn under skirts, in fact they are even more modest because they are opaque and not sheer. This is a foolish argument,and only proves your own perversions, rather than the laxity of women on the mitzva of tznius. Stop picking on women! (ETA – Rabbi Hoffman wrote to me to say that his aricle was not based on personal observation, but from the concerns of bais yaakov mothers in his community – read the full story here – as such, I retract my initial opinion of his behavior, which was based on his writing from a first hand observation perspective).

Another recent doozy on tznius, and how women are causing physical harm to those around them by their lax observance, occurred in a publication called “The Voice of Lakewood.”  The first letter to the editor blames the recent spate of local car accidents on men leering out of their car windows at frum women wearing tight fitting clothing.  The writer is a woman whose husband suffers horribly because of the untznius women in the community.  It’s gotten so bad that he can’t even go to the grocery store anymore! I hope they’ve got good insurance.  She accuses recalcitrant women, “That person that got hurt or died—it might have been because of you.”

Another Voice of Lakewood article espouses the belief that women are forbidden to wear sheitels (wigs) below their shoulders.  An appalled father bemoans a conversation he had with his young daughter, “Tatty,” she began, “If it’s true that ladies are not supposed to wear sheitels longer than their shoulders, then how come my teacher does?”  I hope this teacher either has a good sheitel macher or a good excuse for Olam Ha’Emes (the world of truth/the afterlife), as this father suggests!  Who makes up these random rules, and must they apply even to those who follow a different rabbi?  Remember, these are married women who are already covering their hair to comply with tznius standards!

Another Voice of Lakewood letter is from a horrified mother who sees young girls running around in too-short knee socks, so that the skin between the sock and the skirt hem shows when they sit, run, or jump.  She relays her shock upon seeing photos of a 2nd grade girls summer camp, in which every girl sitting on a couch had skin showing between their skirt and socks.

This Voice of Lakewood tidbit, exhorts mothers of cheder boys to not dress up or wear perfume when coming to meet the rebbe during parent teacher conferences.  The writer is himself a Lakewood rebbe, who apparently has a hard time controlling himself around mothers all dolled up as if they are going to a wedding.  In fact, he wonders why we can’t just trust the fathers to go and bring back the school report?  Why do women have to be involved in their son’s education at all?

It may seem silly that I am talking about attitudes happening in Crown Heights, or 5 Towns, or Lakewood, NJ, when I live in Chicago.  What should it matter to me if the Lakewood community wants to take these stringencies upon themselves, even to the point of considering them halachic obligations?  I argue it matters because in Chicago, Lakewood is touted as being a holy community, something that we in Chicago should aspire to.  There is a large contingency of Chicago transplants in Lakewood.  So many, that a few years ago a letter was sent out to the Chicago community asking that Chicagoans give a large portion of their tzedaka to the holy city of Lakewood and their avreichim (elite scholars).  The trickle down effect of chumras/psaks/societal norms from Israel, to NY/NJ, to the rest of American communities, can’t be denied.  In a few years, I really don’t want my kids’ parent-teacher conferences to look like the upcoming Agudath Israel Midwest/Agudath Israel Illinois Conference – marketed as being a unifying event, with no women or children to be seen.

ETA – For more on this topic, read this interesting take by Rebbeca M. Ross, Women Assault Rabbis with Sights and Smells (And Other Interesting Tales from Lakewood)