The other week a commenter on my blog, Dean Cowan, linked to a 2006 employment study done on the haredi Stamford Hill community in London. Dean referenced this study in response to my article on poverty within the haredi community. His point was that in the haredi neighborhoods of Stamford Hill and Manchester, there is a greater balance of “learners and earners” than my post suggested.
Although my post was mainly referencing the kollel lifestyle espoused by Israeli haredi society, and the resulting poverty, I also suggested that this way of life is becoming prevalent in American haredi communities as well. Dean suggested that London was a role model for how economic balance can be achieved in haredi communities.
While the Stamford Hill study was interesting, and did suggest that working for a living is not frowned upon in the London community, it still suggested that most haredi workers lack education and the means to secure higher paying jobs. Although some men did well in diamonds, real estate, import/export, teaching, and running small businesses, overall the types of jobs that were available without secular degrees offered limited income.
I think that it’s terrific that working isn’t a stigma in Stamford Hill, but based on the study, it seems that higher education still is. The Stamford Hill community still suffers from poverty and makes regular use of both private and public funding to make ends meet.
At the same time I was reading the Stamford Hill study, I had set up a phone interview to speak with a haredi New York area fellow I’ve become acquainted with on Twitter. He goes by the handle, @shlomo_kay (not his real name), and I became curious about him when he once referred to himself as resembling a “Yoeli” (a follower of the Satmar rebbe, Yoel Teitelbaum).
Shlomo is very well spoken, at least in 140 characters or less, and interested in a wide variety of topics in the Jewish orthodox spectrum. He also has a personal interest in economic theory, which led me to believe he might have a college degree or work in finance. Additionally, he is fluent in Yiddish, and told me about the scholarly chasidish Yiddish dialect comprised of Yiddish, Biblical Hebrew, and Aramaic that top learners often use in the beis medrash. This language of discourse is only mastered by the upper echelon of Torah scholars. He pointed me to a website for examples, but I couldn’t read it, and Google Translate was useless.
At first, I wanted to interview Shlomo about his involvement with Twitter. I had noticed that there were a lot of Yiddish speaking chasids on Twitter under pseudonyms and I was curious about this “Twitterburg” underground. However, after reading the Stamford Hill study, I thought that perhaps Shlomo could enlighten me about whether such a balance between learners and earners also existed in Williamsburg or Borough Park.
I am going to divide up the interview into three posts, as our conversation forked into three related but separate roads. Below is a transcript of my conversation with Shlomo, comprising a combination of direct quotes and my own paraphrasing.
Shlomo Kay is a rabbi who grew up in the Brooklyn neighborhoods of Williamsburg and Borough Park. He spent many years in kollel and by his description, attended “yeshivish yeshivos, the creme de la creme of ultra charedi type.“ Eventually he made his way through yeshivas in New York, Brisk in Israel, and Lakewood. He left chasidism at a fairly young age, initially because of the level of learning and eventually because of the friends he made in yeshivish circles.
His ideologies evolved from chasidish to yeshivish, and he currently finds his place in a yeshivish community in New York. He now works as a rabbi who acts as a consultant on halachic matters. Shlomo is married with several children.
Shlomo told me that when it comes to haredi Jews, chasidic and yeshivish groups are often lumped together into one by outsiders. In truth, however, the two groups’ kollel lifestyles are based on entirely different sets of principles. For most chasidic groups the issue is secular education. They are opposed to college in principle, and they frown on a secular education. Even if they are not opposed to teaching basic skills in elementary school, they make light of it. For them, the issue isn’t the desire to learn or the prohibition of Bittul Torah, it’s about the lack of a secular education. With the language barrier and minimal education, their choices are limited. In the yeshivish community, on the other hand, it’s all about learning. They are not necessarily opposed to secular education in principle. The driving principle for the yeshivish community is learning Torah.
In previous generations, most chasidim worked, it’s only recently that more people started staying in kollel. In the past, only the best and brightest chasids stayed in kollel. Those who were not the best and brightest went to work after high school. However, even the best and brightest eventually have overwhelming financial concerns and at some point government programs are not sufficient to support their families. By the time their financial situation reaches a crisis, their only option for a lucrative career is to become an entrepreneur. However, to be a successful entrepreneur, one has to take risks. It’s one thing to take business risks when you are starting out at 18 years old, it’s another thing to take them when you are already responsible for a large family.
Shlomo went on to say,
“It’s (the kollel lifestyle) not sustainable, so I believe more people will be going to work. The trend seems to be heading toward people learning full time, but I think the trend has reached its maturity.”
“As kids grow up and see their brothers and perhaps even their parents spending their whole lives learning and have no future in the system except perhaps to get a job in chinuch and, as in academia in general, (they find that) those jobs are few and far between. Kids watching this will not want to buy into the system. They will look for ways to go to work and educate themselves.”
“In the yeshivish population there is a segment that will go to work and even to college. But the trend will likely shift toward people getting education in yeshivish circles. But by chasidim, it’s not happening anytime soon. There is a language barrier and minimal education as it is. They are against going to universities in general. In yeshivish circles college is Bittul Torah but by chasidim (it’s cultural).”
In Shlomo’s new yeshivish community, most people work. He says that the most frustrating thing about the haredi lifestyle is that so many people are not planning for their future. Most of their kids will be growing up in a society where they have no prospects for a sound financial future.
“I am a product of “the system,” but I don’t see how it is sustainable or even permitted on such a wide scale.”
“It used to be that in yeshivish circles, (a man in yeshiva) after a certain amount of years would get a chinuch job, but the field is saturated even for really bright ones. What’s more, the learning is at a very high level. The brightest ones are learning in a sophisticated way. The more time they spend perfecting their learning in Lakewood, the more sophisticated they become, the less qualified (they are) to teach kids – too high a level.”
“(The) ones who have innate talent in teaching kids will get grabbed (right away). (They) spend 10-15 years of kollel perfecting a skill that nobody wants (meaning, teaching young kids).”
“They all wanted to work at some point, but most will be left without any prospects for jobs. Nearing 40, marrying off children, they have no occupations, and have no patience to learn anymore the same way they did 10 years ago. Children growing up in these houses will eventually turn away, how far is unclear.”
Here is Part II and Part III of the interview.
